Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks, but I can't slow down the movements all thet time cause sometimes the other actor will speak fast, so I have to be ready to move fast a lot on other people's projects. It was said before that it might not be wind noise, so I wasn't sure. I could get a windscreen for it, as long as it is wind noise, but are you sure it is likely?

[Patrick Tracy]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Okay thanks, but I can't slow down the movements all thet time cause sometimes the other actor will speak fast, so I have to be ready to move fast a lot on other people's projects. It was said before that it might not be wind noise, so I wasn't sure. I could get a windscreen for it, as long as it is wind noise, but are you sure it is likely?

It sounds like wind noise to me.

Probably the reason a shotgun isn't recommended for indoors is that the off axis response is a bit funky. The room might bounce some of the sound back into it. But I'd give it a go and see how it sounds.

[Ryan Elder]

Oh well the shotgun sounds not bad indoors, just not as good I find.

Plus with the hyper, you have a little more wiggle room too, which is good. I find that the hyper has no problems if I am booming one person and don't have to tilt. Here is a short film I did recently with someone else booming with my mic, and there isn't any wind problems I don't think because there is no tilting involved, and just one person speaking:

Sad and Battle Damaged Souls - YouTube

So if the sound is good, I would like to keep using the mic if possible. Plus it seems to have a little more base than the shotgun which is good. But perhaps I just need better wind protection then, then the thin screen it came with, which seems to make no difference.

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan, what you seem to need is an immediate dose of years of experience, the willingness to experiment, the development of technique and a good ear. We are trying so hard to help. You've heard that shotguns don't sound good indoors and taken multiple comments on here and the web in general as a fact. The trouble is you haven't discovered yet why people say this. That clip I posted. A shotgun with NO noise turning as fast as I can. Last night in my studio I was using an AKG 414. I stick it on hyper and tried moving it. Terrible wind noise. Not just wind but crunch mechanical sounding wind like your AT. Does this prove its a bad mic? No of course not, but clearly it's the wrong mic. In my clip there's no wind, but would you say the room sounds bad on my voice? When it's on axis, there's no real room issue, when it's off axis to my mouth my voice reveals the shotgun sound people hate. Your job is to make sure you don't record it. Too many users do a rubbish job of aiming the mic and this reveals the hollow sound. Your AT suffers really badly. The gain setting in dB is NOT what we're trying to suggest, we're asking if the gain staging is wrong. Is the mic too sensitive so the internal preamp cannot cope, or is the crushing sound coming from the external preamp? Clearly the combination you have at the moment doesn't work. If the windshield doesn't work, then try something else. It only needs to be small on your mic. Get a bit of fur fabric and stick it over the grill and secure with an elastic band. Do something practical. The wind you believe causes it, so stop the wind!!!!

[Ryan Elder]

Oh okay thanks, sometimes with the shotgun I haven't been able to tell a difference in reverb hardly, but there one concern I have from actual experience. If I am trying to keep background noise in the background, while indoors, the hyper does a better job of it. With the hyper, background noise is more in the background, say if there is is a vent noise, we are not allowed to turn off, or something like that.

If were to use the shotgun instead, is it possible to put background noise, further into the background with them?

And you mentioned the thing about using the shotgun, it's when for my own projects someone else is usually booming in the past they did a bad job with the shotgun, and were not accurate enough, and it was a bad price for me to pay. So I thought they would do better with the hyper, since I was told it has more wiggle room for indoors. But if the hyper is the wrong mic, how do you get someone to get really good with the right mic?

As for the crushing sound coming from the external pre-amp possibly, I'm not sure if it is. Is there a way to tell if it is?

[Brian Drysdale]

I would try experimenting with a different hyper mic. I recall being supplied with a mic and no matter what you did regarding windshields it was always prone to wind noise outdoors. Changing to different brand of mic solved the issue,

It may be worth getting the hyper checked out by a technician, in case it has been damaged, since doing a quick check online doesn't reveal users having an issue with this mic when used on a boom.

[Paul R Johnson]

Does it matter where I think it comes from Ryan? you have the kit, so the ball's in your court. I don't know how loud your sources are, I don't know your distances, I don't know without the mic in my hand how susceptible it really is.

You did actually say something you should think about. If you have inept boom ops, then giving them and easier tool, but perhaps a worse one is a crazy process. If a shotgun with the extra reach is the best tool, why would you select a wider pattern mic, that will sound more distant, and pick up so much more from the room? it's like a follow spot on a person on an empty stage, who is running around. a good follow spot op can keep their head and upper body in the white circle and never plunge them into darkness. you can see all the detail in their face and costume, and very little of the background is visible. however, as I have experienced dozens of times, a novice follow spot operator over shoots, under shoots, or worse, opens the circle up so it covers two feet above their head, two feet below their feet and two feet either side. The person never goes dark, but the audience see the scenery, the other actors behind him, the piles of rubbish in the wings. It's exactly like swapping a shotgun for a hyper or a cardioid. see the problem.

How do you get someone to be really good? Easy. Practice.

you have everything you need, but I can't get my head around your problems.

You say you can hardly tell a difference in reverb between the shotgun and the hyper? Then use the shotgun if it doesn't;t make the noise you hate. OR - stop the hyper making the noise. If you cannot hear the difference you either have terrible headphones or terrible ears. You really are expecting to buy the same paints as Rembrandt and are cross because your portraits don't look the same, and the other people you have them to produced even worse results. Perhaps time to find a decent painter?

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. Where would I find a technician to look at it? The store that sold it has people who know some stuff, but there is also a lot they do not know as well, I find.

So what you are saying is that a shotgun performs just as well indoors as a hyper, if the operator is really good at being accurate with it, is that right?

As for the hyper sounding more distant, than the shotgun, does it? I didn't notice a difference in distance, but does it normally?

[Paul R Johnson]

No Ryan - not what I'm saying at all. There is nothing broken, or at least it's unlikely.

If you look at the AT mic you have, consider the design. A capsule at the end that has front access to sound pressure waves, it also has side vents that are part of the process of what's technically called a pressure gradient microphone. sound comes in on axis and hits the diaphragm but sound also arrives from other directions and a simplified result is cancellation of sound from certain places - making the microphone have a focus forwards, more than a cardioid, but with some odd side lobes. These perhaps, assuming the mic really is OK, are a direction of some sensitivity - and even slight wind from the side could be captured by the mic as something very loud!

Stick it in a sports sock, wrap it with velvet, grab a teddy bear and make a hole up it's bottom and stuff the mic in - try these things and if one reduces the problem, then you just need to work out a prettier way to do the same thing.

Shotguns indoors do provide good capture when the signal to noise works for you. Like in the video on booming, somebody posted - if you aim at their mouth and not their head they sound great. If you miss their mouth then you will capture the sound of whatever you are pointing at. A wall, a window, a ceiling or a floor. If these are reflecting sound and you capture it, it can sound hollow and thin - just not nice. For many people, this is enough to put them off. Shotguns indoors are room dependent and operator critical. A hyper needs closer positioning for the same aural effect, but are more forgiving in operator control.

You could use an omni (please - this is not an instruction) and not have to move the boom at all and listeners would hear the room. If the room was dead, the omni - like clip on wavs would be fine!

[Brian Drysdale]

Initially I would do what Paul says to check for a solution for the issue.

I would eliminate all possible external causes before checking for other issues. Also, be aware of the operating technique when twisting the boom for the switch,

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Originally Posted by Paul R Johnson

No Ryan - not what I'm saying at all. There is nothing broken, or at
You could use an omni (please - this is not an instruction) and not have to move the boom at all and listeners would hear the room. If the room was dead, the omni - like clip on wavs would be fine!

So you’re saying I should use an omni mic. :-p

[Ryan Elder]

Okay thanks. Since the shotgun is less sensitive to wind, and has more distance than a hyper, is there any reason or any situation to use a hyper at all, for sound capturing for movies, or not really?

[Paul R Johnson]

Ryan, you're still not quite there. Shotguns enable you to capture from further away and get a similar sound, but this of course means you need more gain. More gain brings up a gentle present into something more aggressive. Outside wind rarely maintains a constant direction so big wind protection is the norm.

Of course there are reasons to use a hyper. Two people too far apart for a shotgun to cover without moving, a noisy set can make the shotgun a winner with the ability to concentrate capture on a small areas. Four or five in a group is tricky for a shotgun so we use a hyper. Practical decisions the experienced sound guy makes on the day, after looking at the setup. Best tool for the job.

Please don't think we are prescribing shotguns as less sensitive to wind by type. Clearly your hyper is terrible for wind rejection, either because of design (which I, like others have never heard mentioned before) or its faulty. Give it to somebody comfy with mics and they will tell you in a minute if it's normal or broken.

[Brian Drysdale]

Originally Posted by Ryan Wray

Okay thanks. Since the shotgun is less sensitive to wind, and has more distance than a hyper, is there any reason or any situation to use a hyper at all, for sound capturing for movies, or not really?

You're making a general statement, I know sound recordists who use a different make of hyper mic on a boom without any wind issues. There also seems to be others online who use your hyper mic without issues and regard it as a good budget alternative to industry standards..

There are good windshields available, which would seem to be worth checking out. As mentioned earlier in the thread, Rycote make softies and even a super softie or windjammers or foam., These aren't be as big as a Zeppelin, so will be less of a shadow problem Other brands are available, one person just uses a $5 foam one for interiors on a boom.

You do need to run you own practical tests, otherwise the thread will just keep going around in circles.

[Paul R Johnson]

I think Brian is right, we''re making little progress here because 99% of this problem is totally within the control of the operator. I just don't understand why you're not trying out the stuff we're talking about.

Brian - if you are free at any point Mid November to Jan, come and find me at the Opera House in Belfast, happy to give you a tour of the place and the clever kit we use.