Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects?

Ryan Elder · June 2nd, 2019, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Reineke

" I boom with the AT4053b mic indoors, but the mic is very sensitive to wind, so when I shift boom from actor to actor, wind gets in the mic and causes unwanted static noise"

- As Paul already stated, wind turbulence noise and 'static' are entirely two different things, .. at least to audio folks. If you are getting a low frequency rumble, you're probably doing something wrong with booming or your gear set-up. I've rarely had air turbulence issues with a 4053, when the OEM screen was not adequate, I used an Olsen/Windtech US-2 dual-stage foam windscreen (about $35.USD as I recall). I never used an AT-4053 for exteriors.. nor would I want to. For my 'interference tube' (aka, shotgun) mics. I have zeppelins and Softies.

I did some tests though and it's definitely the wind. Cause when I put the AT4053b in the Zeppelin with the deadcat on, the problem goes away, and I can swing the boom from actor to actor without any noise interference. So the wind is definitely causing the noise. However, the hairy sausage is very large and shadow-ish for tight indoor shoots, and it creates six extra inches of distance between the mic and the actors.

So I was wondering, if there is anything else for wind protection besides the hairy sausage that would be better for the AT4053b? But it's definitely the wind.

As for if I am running audio or not, no I want someone else to of course, but I need to budget the equipment I need to get still, as well as the video equipment, etc.

Josh Bass · June 2nd, 2019, 01:28 PM

Just keep in mind that equipment is no good unless whoever is using it knows what theyre doing.

Ryan Elder · June 2nd, 2019, 01:37 PM

Okay thanks, for sure. I usually get someone else to operate my equipment while shooting, but then in post, I do a lot of the sound effects and Foley, with the same equipment, so it sounds more the same, rather than trying to use different mics and pre-amps, and trying to match it more.

But as for the issue of the AT4053b, making noise when shifting the boom from actor to actor, I think it's the wind, from shifting cause it does it more without wind protection on. I was told to just have the boom mic operator move the boom slower, but I want to boom to the next actor on time, and be ready and aimed, so they have to move fast.

Since I have the equipment though, I also am a boom operator for other people's projects, and I have wind problems with the mic when booming fast as well. So what do you do about that problem? Usually I am able to boom fast enough that the wind problem is over, by the time the next actor speaks but you still hear some sever interference for a short fraction of a second, that has to be cut out in editing, and I don't like that. Is this normal?

Brian Drysdale · June 2nd, 2019, 02:09 PM

Regarding "wind" when moving the mic, the answer has already been given, either use foam cover or a softie on the mic, if you're not using a zeppelin. Try tilting mic from side to side to favour each actor as required, so you don't make big movements bu swinging the mic. ,

Paul R Johnson · June 2nd, 2019, 02:10 PM

Have you discovered the angle flip trick? If you are doing rapid sideways movement to get the mic above each person, then that wind can be too much for light weight foam, so the trick is to put the boom equidistant between them, then rotate the boom to favour each person. You don't then move the actual pole at all, just rotate it? I bet you're always trying to go down vertically? Depending on the situation you can also try hyper-cardioid mics too - these may sound slightly more distant, but room allowing, can do pretty well.

Ryan Elder · June 2nd, 2019, 02:39 PM

Okay thanks. That works for scenes when the actors are close together, but if I am doing a scene when they are further apart and need to get the mic close to each actor, then I have to do bigger swings with the boom.

But even a tilt still makes wind noise, cause the mic is tilting fast, from person to person. I can get a cover for the wind, just wondering which is best, since I thought the furry ones, might be too heavy duty and cause a little muffling in the quality.

Paul R Johnson · June 2nd, 2019, 02:46 PM

If they are a long way apart, you need two booms. You cannot boom that fast with a heavy top load because it has to move too fast. I've never got wind noise from twisting a mic through 90 degrees, even when done in the speech gaps. With longer mics, the maximum speed is defined by the mount's ability to cope with the turn . With more than say 6ft between the actors, moving position to record a conversation is too much for the inter-phrase gap, so it's still moving when they speak. It just works badly.

Ryan Elder · June 2nd, 2019, 03:06 PM

Oh okay, what do you mean by 'interphrase gap'? Do you mean the amount of time it takes to move the boom vs.. the amount of time it takes for the next actor to talk?

So far I usually shift the boom in wide master shots, but if it's an OTS or close up shot though, I tend to keep the mic on the one actor who's mouth you can see moving, as oppose to the other actors, who you cannot see in the shot.

Is this bad, and should I still take turns booming the other actors, even though they are not on camera for that shot, if I am the only boom operator?

Brian Drysdale · June 2nd, 2019, 04:26 PM

Favour the in vision speaking actor when shooting the singles, the other actor could have their face stuck in close to the camera to give the best eye line while feeding the lines.

Ryan Elder · June 2nd, 2019, 04:36 PM

Oh okay. Well as for the notion that if the actors are more than six feet apart I should try to get another boom operator, the boompole I have is 16 feet long. Isn't one of the points of having a long boom, to be able to move the boom longer distances between actors?

Brian Drysdale · June 2nd, 2019, 04:41 PM

Not really, the longer pole allows you to reach further into the set without being in shot.

Ryan Elder · June 2nd, 2019, 05:00 PM

Yes they do that too, I just thought I could have more length to move the boom from actor to actor as well.

But even if I just tilt the boom 90 degrees, there is still wind interference in the mic if I do it quickly. So I guess I will still need some wind protection for that anyway.

One scene I have coming up is a courtroom scene. If I cannot get a second boom operator, would it be too much for the boom operator to boom from the actor playing the defense attorney, to the actor playing the prosecutor, if they are that far apart? It's more than six feet, but with wind protection, would it be do-able then?

Paul R Johnson · June 2nd, 2019, 11:56 PM

The goal posts move so fast in this topic. No sooner do we settle on one problem, we zap off on another. I'm picturing now a court room. Usual layout. Quite a few people speaking a long way apart. Screams lavs to me, not a boom, or booms.

Rotating a mic on the end of a boom doesn't create wind noise to me. Remember Fisher booms in to studios, they can move a mic up down left and right very quickly and with no wind noise on a short shotgun. They can snap left and right between people. It's what they do. Interphase? The ℗ between different actor's lines. If you choose to ignor one actor, how do you recover it? Shoot again this time favouring the other..

YOu made it clear you are a beginner, now you have others doing it for you?

If you want to do it properly, then do it. Your solutions appear to be doom and gloom. You have one mic, you now have a big space, with lots of people to cover with it.

However, I watch US drama and note all US courts feature podium and desk mics, why not use them? Or hire some lavs and a multitrack recorder, or hire a spare boom op and do it properly. If you dont have the time to learn how to move a mic silently, or find a way to do it with one mic, then how can we help. Is the next scene going to be suddenly outside, in a blizzard, next to a jet airplane, with an actor trying to whisper to another? It's problem after problem, and every solution brushed aside with reasons it won't work.

I have a strong feeling most of the problems are just down to a lack of knowledge and skills, and jumping too far before the experience catches up. I really understand beginners getting in, but this is like auditioning for the third spear carrier in Shakespeare and then discovering you are sharing the lead role!

Brian Drysdale · June 3rd, 2019, 12:56 AM

There is a number of books on this subject. If you're recording sound on a feature film, it would be worth checking them out.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Producing-G...s=books&sr=1-4

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Producing-G...s=books&sr=1-4

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Desig...+recording&qid

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Effec...=books&sr=1-17

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Desig...=books&sr=1-18

Mechanical sounds like cables slapping against a long boom can to be a problem on fast moves unless you've wrapped tight,

As mentioned, Fisher booms didn't suffer from wind noise and they were moved very quickly., J.L. Fisher - Model 7 Boom

Paul R Johnson · June 3rd, 2019, 01:22 AM

youtube videos are often terrible - that's the best boom video I've seen. Don't disagree with anything he said. Watching that video would stop some college courses wasting peoples time!

June 2nd, 2019, 01:28 PM	#182
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Just keep in mind that equipment is no good unless whoever is using it knows what theyre doing. __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

June 2nd, 2019, 01:37 PM	#183
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Okay thanks, for sure. I usually get someone else to operate my equipment while shooting, but then in post, I do a lot of the sound effects and Foley, with the same equipment, so it sounds more the same, rather than trying to use different mics and pre-amps, and trying to match it more. But as for the issue of the AT4053b, making noise when shifting the boom from actor to actor, I think it's the wind, from shifting cause it does it more without wind protection on. I was told to just have the boom mic operator move the boom slower, but I want to boom to the next actor on time, and be ready and aimed, so they have to move fast. Since I have the equipment though, I also am a boom operator for other people's projects, and I have wind problems with the mic when booming fast as well. So what do you do about that problem? Usually I am able to boom fast enough that the wind problem is over, by the time the next actor speaks but you still hear some sever interference for a short fraction of a second, that has to be cut out in editing, and I don't like that. Is this normal?

June 2nd, 2019, 02:09 PM	#184
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Regarding "wind" when moving the mic, the answer has already been given, either use foam cover or a softie on the mic, if you're not using a zeppelin. Try tilting mic from side to side to favour each actor as required, so you don't make big movements bu swinging the mic. ,

June 2nd, 2019, 02:10 PM	#185
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Have you discovered the angle flip trick? If you are doing rapid sideways movement to get the mic above each person, then that wind can be too much for light weight foam, so the trick is to put the boom equidistant between them, then rotate the boom to favour each person. You don't then move the actual pole at all, just rotate it? I bet you're always trying to go down vertically? Depending on the situation you can also try hyper-cardioid mics too - these may sound slightly more distant, but room allowing, can do pretty well.

June 2nd, 2019, 02:39 PM	#186
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Okay thanks. That works for scenes when the actors are close together, but if I am doing a scene when they are further apart and need to get the mic close to each actor, then I have to do bigger swings with the boom. But even a tilt still makes wind noise, cause the mic is tilting fast, from person to person. I can get a cover for the wind, just wondering which is best, since I thought the furry ones, might be too heavy duty and cause a little muffling in the quality.

June 2nd, 2019, 02:46 PM	#187
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? If they are a long way apart, you need two booms. You cannot boom that fast with a heavy top load because it has to move too fast. I've never got wind noise from twisting a mic through 90 degrees, even when done in the speech gaps. With longer mics, the maximum speed is defined by the mount's ability to cope with the turn . With more than say 6ft between the actors, moving position to record a conversation is too much for the inter-phrase gap, so it's still moving when they speak. It just works badly.

June 2nd, 2019, 03:06 PM	#188
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Oh okay, what do you mean by 'interphrase gap'? Do you mean the amount of time it takes to move the boom vs.. the amount of time it takes for the next actor to talk? So far I usually shift the boom in wide master shots, but if it's an OTS or close up shot though, I tend to keep the mic on the one actor who's mouth you can see moving, as oppose to the other actors, who you cannot see in the shot. Is this bad, and should I still take turns booming the other actors, even though they are not on camera for that shot, if I am the only boom operator?

June 2nd, 2019, 04:26 PM	#189
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Favour the in vision speaking actor when shooting the singles, the other actor could have their face stuck in close to the camera to give the best eye line while feeding the lines.

June 2nd, 2019, 04:36 PM	#190
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Oh okay. Well as for the notion that if the actors are more than six feet apart I should try to get another boom operator, the boompole I have is 16 feet long. Isn't one of the points of having a long boom, to be able to move the boom longer distances between actors?

June 2nd, 2019, 04:41 PM	#191
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Not really, the longer pole allows you to reach further into the set without being in shot.

June 2nd, 2019, 05:00 PM	#192
Ryan Elder also known as Ryan Wray Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Saskatoon, Canada Posts: 2,888	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? Yes they do that too, I just thought I could have more length to move the boom from actor to actor as well. But even if I just tilt the boom 90 degrees, there is still wind interference in the mic if I do it quickly. So I guess I will still need some wind protection for that anyway. One scene I have coming up is a courtroom scene. If I cannot get a second boom operator, would it be too much for the boom operator to boom from the actor playing the defense attorney, to the actor playing the prosecutor, if they are that far apart? It's more than six feet, but with wind protection, would it be do-able then?

June 2nd, 2019, 11:56 PM	#193
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? The goal posts move so fast in this topic. No sooner do we settle on one problem, we zap off on another. I'm picturing now a court room. Usual layout. Quite a few people speaking a long way apart. Screams lavs to me, not a boom, or booms. Rotating a mic on the end of a boom doesn't create wind noise to me. Remember Fisher booms in to studios, they can move a mic up down left and right very quickly and with no wind noise on a short shotgun. They can snap left and right between people. It's what they do. Interphase? The ℗ between different actor's lines. If you choose to ignor one actor, how do you recover it? Shoot again this time favouring the other.. YOu made it clear you are a beginner, now you have others doing it for you? If you want to do it properly, then do it. Your solutions appear to be doom and gloom. You have one mic, you now have a big space, with lots of people to cover with it. However, I watch US drama and note all US courts feature podium and desk mics, why not use them? Or hire some lavs and a multitrack recorder, or hire a spare boom op and do it properly. If you dont have the time to learn how to move a mic silently, or find a way to do it with one mic, then how can we help. Is the next scene going to be suddenly outside, in a blizzard, next to a jet airplane, with an actor trying to whisper to another? It's problem after problem, and every solution brushed aside with reasons it won't work. I have a strong feeling most of the problems are just down to a lack of knowledge and skills, and jumping too far before the experience catches up. I really understand beginners getting in, but this is like auditioning for the third spear carrier in Shakespeare and then discovering you are sharing the lead role! Last edited by Paul R Johnson; June 3rd, 2019 at 01:15 AM.

June 3rd, 2019, 12:56 AM	#194
Brian Drysdale Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Belfast, UK Posts: 6,152	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? There is a number of books on this subject. If you're recording sound on a feature film, it would be worth checking them out. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Producing-G...s=books&sr=1-4 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Producing-G...s=books&sr=1-4 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Desig...+recording&qid https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Effec...=books&sr=1-17 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sound-Desig...=books&sr=1-18 Mechanical sounds like cables slapping against a long boom can to be a problem on fast moves unless you've wrapped tight, As mentioned, Fisher booms didn't suffer from wind noise and they were moved very quickly., J.L. Fisher - Model 7 Boom Fisher Boom Introduction - YouTube Film Craft 107: The Location Sound Mixer - 8. Operating a Boom Mic - YouTube

June 3rd, 2019, 01:22 AM	#195
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Should I be using multiple mics to record dialogue and sound effects? youtube videos are often terrible - that's the best boom video I've seen. Don't disagree with anything he said. Watching that video would stop some college courses wasting peoples time!