I need some mic advice!

[Dan Gunn]

I have been drafted to video a live country band performance. There is no way they will give me a feed from their mixer soooooo. I will be in the grass 20'-30' from their stage with room to my right and left. I have several Shure SM58s and I might be able to rent a pair of Shure SM57s. I also have a pair (genuine) of Oktava MK-012s and of course a selection of lavs and shotguns.
I have used the Octava mics for recitals, etc but always placed close to the source.

My thinking is to center a pair of SM58s and angle them about 40 degrees. Your thoughts? Has anyone used the Oktava mics in this application?

BTW, each of ten different bands is rehearsing in a different location so I am winging it!

Thanks in advance!

[Pete Cofrancesco]

sm58 is for close up primarily for vocals or for inexpensive on stage coverage of instruments but not 20-30’ away. Better to put them near the lip of the stage or the speakers otherwise you’re likely to pickup audiences noise.

Why won’t they give you a board feed?

[Seth Bloombaum]

Without cooperation from band, house sound, or security/venue any guarantees of good sound are gone. It becomes more of a roll of the dice. It's hard to predict how the mix of ambient and band will sound. Which we all hate, because not being able to control quality of sound or visual is anti-pro.

I'd try the pair of Oktavas in an X/Y, A/B, or ORTF configuration dead-center. I've done *many* such recordings with Oktavas. If it's among audience a high stand will help distance incidental audience sound. Then you've got whatever venue/security/safety issues to deal with. A stereo pair of Cardioids or Hypercardioids like this is a very handy set of mics for live music recording.

An addition to suggest is to give the house sound person an audio recorder, already set to your standard of 16/48 or 24/48. And, who's in charge, anyways? If you're working for the band, the house sound person should be cooperating. If the band isn't cooperating, why are you doing it? They own their performance...

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Most reasonable tech ppl just want advance notice and no extra work. You provide the recorder with the necessary adapter and don’t hassle them 10 minutes before the show starts. For a lot shows I do the person running the board didn’t set it up and has no idea how to give you a feed or where to plugin.

[Roger Gunkel]

As Seth said, if the band have asked you to record their performance then they should have no problem at all giving you a mixer feed, unless they have agreed to give the performance recording rights to the promoters. Otherwise, just liaise well in advance with the engineer, after all they must want the best sound you can get. If the venue is offering the mixing and engineer to the band, then they have no rights over the output without the band's agreement and again it is up to the band.

If you are recording for someone not connected with the band, then you are very likely to be infringing on the band's performance copyright and could be leaving yourself liable.

Roger

[Don Palomaki]

Key is are you recording on behalf of or with permission of the band AND the house?
Is the mixer the band's (first post reads like it is) or the house?
What is the intended purpose/use of the recording?
Are you recording for the band or some one else?
If for the band, do they just want visual, and enough sound to sync later?
How good does the sound need to be?

In any case, an outdoor venue is not likely to provide very clean sound.

What is the venue sound system going to be? If simply a bank of speakers pounding out house sound at each side of the stage, maybe just mic the speakers with the very rugged SM58s.

[Bernie Beaudry]

Many questions unanswered. But here's a thought. Put a Tascam DR-40 or similar on a tall stand and put it near the center. I recorded a number of live concerst that way (outdoors) and it gave me a really nice sound. Just the right amount of audience sound plus a very rich, realistic sound. I was right next to the mixer position centered on the stage. I was also able to get a board feed, but I have to say the audio from the Tascam was really nice. I did put my unused boom mic fur over the mics for some over kill wind protection.

[Dan Gunn]

Guys thank you for your input! I will be using a pair of Oktava MK 010 mics about 10' from the speakers.
Like me, everybody (including the pro bands) has been drafted and is donating time and effort for a charitable cause. The organizer is reluctant to make demands and neither will I. "It is what it is"

For what it is worth, all of us should try to help others. In this instance, it is disabled vets.
As a semi retired shooter, money is scarce so I give my time. You?

Thanks again all!

[Bernie Beaudry]

Originally Posted by Dan Gunn

Guys thank you for your input! I will be using a pair of Oktava MK 010 mics about 10' from the speakers.
Like me, everybody (including the pro bands) has been drafted and is donating time and effort for a charitable cause. The organizer is reluctant to make demands and neither will I. "It is what it is"

For what it is worth, all of us should try to help others. In this instance, it is disabled vets.
As a semi retired shooter, money is scarce so I give my time. You?

Thanks again all!

Prepare to be flexible with placement of your pair of Oktavas. Ten feet will minimize the sound of the crowd a great deal and get you mostly PA but it won't sound that good. The mix needs some distance from the speakers to blend and sound good. As others have mentioned the best sound is usually by the FOH mix position. If you can, get the mics up about 8 feet. The crowd will be facing away from the mics towards the stage so you'll minimize localized crowd sound but you'll still get enough from them to know that you're at a live concert. Also those mics are sensitive and you could have trouble controlling the levels if you're too close to the speakers. Also think about miking the crowd so you can blend that in as needed in post. You could use your shotguns for that. Mounted near the stage facing the crowd in an xy pattern, or evenly spaced on either side of the stage aiming towards the center of the crowd.
Best of luck! Its a great cause!

[Steven Digges]

Dan, nobody's hammering you. All legitimate comments so far.

One of your biggest challenges is concert sound systems. We know your not going to get a board feed. So your mics will be 10 feet away from what speakers? Concert sound is routed into many types of speakers all producing different sound. If you are 20 feet away from center you might find yourself smack in front of a row of thumping subs with no vocals. Just saying, be careful which speakers you mic. But you probably know that. It is a forum, I do not know you.

I have been in many secured mosh pits. None of them were 20 or 30 feet deep. You said you will have room to your right and left. Is this secured space? If not that is the last place I would want to work from even at a charity concert for a good cause. I have been pushed around and unable to work even by small crowds that meant no harm. Crowd dynamics can be scary and unpredictable. Please be careful, stage center 30 feet out is not a safe place to work for you or your gear once 10 bands are playing and alcohol flows.

Kind Regards,

Steve

[Pete Cofrancesco]

I actually get Dan. I also live in the budget event video world. I’ve never been allowed to setup a centered stereo pair on 10’ mic stand up front. No one wants you blocking the sight line or taking a prime seat with a mic stand. I’m doing an opera this weekend where the director doesn’t even like a mic polking up 1’ above the stage.

But I have to agree with all of the comments that there are so many pit falls trying to put a mic any where else. Honestly just get the board feed.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Dan Gunn

...The organizer is reluctant to make demands and neither will I. "It is what it is"

For what it is worth, all of us should try to help others. In this instance, it is disabled vets.
As a semi retired shooter, money is scarce so I give my time. You?

Dan, I respect what you're trying to do, and your motivation to do so. I too am pretty much out of the production biz after 35+ years, having transitioned to teaching the next generations. But, I can't leave well enough alone, I'm doing volunteer production for non-profits that are supporting causes I believe in.

And, I have to say, it's harder than doing work for money. I'm working for and with great people. They don't have much of a clue, compared to the people I dealt with as an agency producer and as a freelancer. It's harder to establish credibility. They don't know the media *buying* biz, don't know video, don't value something they get for free, don't know media marketing, don't have a clear understanding of what I do, exactly how you or I could provide value to the organization or beneficiaries, and don't at all understand what we need to succeed in supporting the organization with our work.

With all that as given in volunteer work like this, it's still pretty discouraging to hear that advocating for quality in production is perceived as "making demands".

***Edit***
Now in the light of day, I want to emphasize that the non-profits I’ve volunteered for are doing important work, and are run by quality people who are dedicated to the mission. It’s always been needful in my career to explain to clients what we do, why we do it, why it’s valuable to them, and what we need to succeed. I’ve been surprised at how much more difficult that is in volunteering. Partly, I think, this is because the leadership of most non-profits are individually incredibly busy, wearing many hats, serving many roles, and don’t have dedicated time and mind-share for the video work. So be it. I’ll keep at it.

[Dan Gunn]

Thanks all for your understanding. I will have two Oktava MK 12 mics in the middle of the stage. Because of the advice I have received here and on another forum, the mics will be 10' to 15' from the stage in a ORTF configuration. I also have a pair of SM58s with pads that will be feeding Marantz recorders and set up close to the stage. Another pair of PZM mics (don't laugh) will be feeding Tascam recorders and will be on the ground close to the stage. I could bring my Macke mixer but that would require a skilled operator to run it.

I own a high powered PA system which I will set up in my yard Saturday to try to simulate what I think the conditions will be at my event.

Now I just gotta round up some competent help! I am too old and feeble for this nightmare.

[Bernie Beaudry]

Originally Posted by Dan Gunn

Thanks all for your understanding. I will have two Oktava MK 12 mics in the middle of the stage. Because of the advice I have received here and on another forum, the mics will be 10' to 15' from the stage in a ORTF configuration. I also have a pair of SM58s with pads that will be feeding Marantz recorders and set up close to the stage. Another pair of PZM mics (don't laugh) will be feeding Tascam recorders and will be on the ground close to the stage. I could bring my Macke mixer but that would require a skilled operator to run it.

I own a high powered PA system which I will set up in my yard Saturday to try to simulate what I think the conditions will be at my event.

Now I just gotta round up some competent help! I am too old and feeble for this nightmare.

Good plan to do a run thru with your PA system. I'm curious what you're hoping to pick up with the PZMs and the 58s. As for the PZMs on the ground I'd be concerned about them getting stepped on by the audience unless there is a barrier set up to keep them from going to the front of the stage. If its a large PA system they'll mostly be getting the subs I would think.
Do your recorders have built in mics? As I suggested previously a decent recording could be made with just one of those back by the mix position on a tall stand. I'd be cautious of over complicating this and ending up with tracks that won't really add to the finished product. Also think about miking the audience. A large part of the energy in a live concert is imparted by the crowd, just like at a sporting event. The video and audio of the crowd will be an important part of documenting these concerts.

[Garrett Low]

Dan, I've been in your shoes. Volunteer work is rewarding but also can be very frustrating. I find that most non-profits that do really good work tend to feel like they are imposing when they ask for things. One of the tactics I've used is to demonstrate to them the enormous value they can gain if they help you get just a little better quality, either visually or usually more importantly soundwise. The video can become a very useful tool in allowing them to secure more donations or being able to attract more people to help volunteer.

Good luck with your worthy endeavor.