Recommendations: Best Value Shotgun Mic for Indie Film

[Steven Schuldt]

"The operative phrase in the original post is "best value" and that means different things to different people"

Fair enough, though I think my "bang-for-buck" intent was fairly well understood. In a sense I was fishing for a mic I'd maybe never heard of that was taking the world by storm. Alas, no such beast appears to have been introduced to the market. As ever, you get what you pay for. And I just didn't want to pay to own a mic I wasn't excited to use.

As far as renting, sure, I've done that for my last several productions. Typically that was the Sennheiser 416, which I found serviceable but vaguely underwhelming, unlike the stuff I had shot with the CMC641, which sounded like manna from heaven.

In a sense, I'm tired of renting, and the only kit I'm missing at this point that would allow me the option not have to deal with the hassle and expense of rental pickup and return are microphones and wind protection gear. Hence my original post.

In any case, I'm happy with my CMC641 decision. One day I'll pick up a good shotgun to go along with it. When I do, the above list by Guy Cochran is fairly awesome, and I'll be using it. Cheers!

[Steven Digges]

I did not find Pete's post snarky at all. If "you know about these things" then you would understand his comment. IMHO Tascam, Zoom et all; are capable of recording quality audio to a point. That point is usually around 5 on their pre amp knob. Anything above that introduces noise and defeats the purpose of a high end mic. When you boom you often need pre amps to do their job at higher than average settings. That is what you get when you pay for Sound Devices gear. Your CMC641 is going to sound great....under average conditions. Above average it will suck, just like any other mic going throug amature pre amps.

There is nothing to make up my f***ing mind about. It has been a long time since I heard someone say that on this board.

Steve

[Pete Cofrancesco]

Maybe it’s just me but I find it annoying when people ask for purchasing advice when they have already made up their mind and dismiss out of hand any advice given.

I’m trying to keep my comments as polite as I can and resisting the urge engage someone when they become emotional and arguementative.

I mean look if you want a Schoeps great, they are the Cadillac of mics, no one can dispute their quality but to try to argue the most expensive mic on the market to be a “value” mic...

Like Don said you’re are only as strong as your weakest link. I don’t think any audio pro would dispute the suggestion that you should use Sound Devices or equivalent with such a mic. Running around outdoors with a Schoeps in a blimp on an indie project seems over kill. That’s a delicate mic used for controlled settings like recording studios or classical orchestra.

[John Nantz]

Question for Steven, Pete, or whomever:
Back on the previous page Bernie said

Originally Posted by Bernie Beaudry

There's a plug on mic booster by Triton Audio that can boost the output of the mic if the gain staging becomes a problem.

TritonAudio has a number of XLR accessories for helping with the signal level, would something like this be helpful with the recorder (in this case the Tascam) if the run was to long, or not enough audio volume?
FetHead - TRITONAUDIO

It appears like it would, (according to their FAQs) but then, if so, the next question would be "How much noise or distortion would be introduced as a result?" Something worth considering?

I've got the Tascam DR-44WL but haven't used it on any long runs. (As an aside, also haven't controlled it with a Knob - only use it with the Tascam "DR Control" iPhone app. Really cool by the way)

If the audio source isn't loud enough that probably isn't the time to walk up the mic and attach a booster to the cable (unless there can be a Take 2").

Edit: Dang it, forgot to thank Bernie for mentioning TritonAudio. Thanks Bernie!

[Pete Cofrancesco]

A quality mixer is more versatile but the fet head is a nice tool that can solve a specific problem. Mainly you can upgrade the preamp without replacing your existing recorder such as a H4N or similar recorder.

TritonAudio Fethead Review - In-Line Preamp for Filmmakers - YouTube

[Steven Schuldt]

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I did not find Pete's post snarky at all. If "you know about these things" then you would understand his comment. IMHO Tascam, Zoom et all; are capable of recording quality audio to a point. That point is usually around 5 on their pre amp knob. Anything above that introduces noise and defeats the purpose of a high end mic. When you boom you often need pre amps to do their job at higher than average settings. That is what you get when you pay for Sound Devices gear. Your CMC641 is going to sound great....under average conditions. Above average it will suck, just like any other mic going throug amature pre amps.

There is nothing to make up my f***ing mind about. It has been a long time since I heard someone say that on this board.

Steve

Oy vey. Yeah, any mic I purchased would have this issue (such as it is), as I don't have the budget for a Sound Devices at the moment and didn't want to sink my mic budget into a Zoom just to get marginally better preamps. The Triton adaptor is something I'm looking at as well, though people bagging on the DR-40 are underestimating the sound that can be gotten out of that thing. The preamps are decent and at 24bit/96Khz it provides enough dynamic range to offset in post essentially any issues with gain.

Also, a lot of this stuff I believe to be pure audiophile baloney. The noise floor that would be raised by pushing the gain past 50 percent will be more than buried by the room tone I'd typically be using (indoor or out) for any scenes I shoot And if you honestly think the DR-40 is going to suddenly turn a CMC641 into an NTG2 once I hit 51 on the gain, please, get serious: you're kidding yourself.

As far as the other stuff, I mean, grow up. How long have you been on the Internet? You can handle a bleeped out "f*cking" can't you? I thanked people who were helpful, found highly useful the list of shotguns posted early on as well as suggestions for blimps and preamp adaptors and said so. It was only when a handful of jackals started in with useless nitpicking and patronizing nonsense that I decided to push back.

So can we move on now, or are you absolutely determined to waste more of your time and mine? My time is worth something, is yours?

[Steven Schuldt]

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

Maybe it’s just me but I find it annoying when people ask for purchasing advice when they have already made up their mind and dismiss out of hand any advice given.

I’m trying to keep my comments as polite as I can and resisting the urge engage someone when they become emotional and arguementative.

I mean look if you want a Schoeps great, they are the Cadillac of mics, no one can dispute their quality but to try to argue the most expensive mic on the market to be a “value” mic...

Like Don said you’re are only as strong as your weakest link. I don’t think any audio pro would dispute the suggestion that you should use Sound Devices or equivalent with such a mic. Running around outdoors with a Schoeps in a blimp on an indie project seems over kill. That’s a delicate mic used for controlled settings like recording studios or classical orchestra.

Maybe it's me, but I find it annoying when people do not take the time to read the thread before attacking others. I asked for suggestions, got some good ones, didn't find anything I liked, went in a different direction. All addressed in this thread, which I will no longer be responding to.

Almost all quality mics are delicate, it's the nature of the beast. The only kind of mic you might feel okay abusing would be something like an SM58. And the CMC641 has been used on so many film productions –indie, studio, what have you– it's not even funny. So your contention about where it's only appropriate to use is basically a complete lie.

In any case—and here I'm talking to the kind people who responded helpfully to this post and past the assholes that have descended on this thread to do what they do—below find a useful link. Assholes are everywhere in American life now, and they are determined to make you one of them via their highly contagious affliction. The below article from September of 2017 on "peak asshole" goes into detail about how to spot them, and strategies for dealing with them. Good luck!

This Professor Has a Theory on Why 2017 Is Filled With Jerks

[Bernie Beaudry]

Originally Posted by John Nantz

Question for Steven, Pete, or whomever:
Back on the previous page Bernie said

TritonAudio has a number of XLR accessories for helping with the signal level, would something like this be helpful with the recorder (in this case the Tascam) if the run was to long, or not enough audio volume?
FetHead - TRITONAUDIO

It appears like it would, (according to their FAQs) but then, if so, the next question would be "How much noise or distortion would be introduced as a result?" Something worth considering?

I've got the Tascam DR-44WL but haven't used it on any long runs. (As an aside, also haven't controlled it with a Knob - only use it with the Tascam "DR Control" iPhone app. Really cool by the way)

If the audio source isn't loud enough that probably isn't the time to walk up the mic and attach a booster to the cable (unless there can be a Take 2").

Edit: Dang it, forgot to thank Bernie for mentioning TritonAudio. Thanks Bernie!

You're welcome! I bought two of them of the phantom variety so I can use them with both of my Schopes. I haven't experimented with them much yet but they do definitely give a good boost to the signal and don't add much noise. My Zaxcom has great preamps and I can open the trim up all the way and the fader most of the way without introducing much hiss at all. So I would use these if I had some very soft spoken folks which isn't often. They're the size of a connector so you would put it in line between the cable out of the boom and the recorder.

[Colin McDonald]

As I am sure many here are fully aware, but in case anyone wasn't:

Originally Posted by tritonaudio.com/fethead.html

FetHead's circuit uses 48v phantom power but shields it from the microphone, so the microphone is protected.

In other words, FetHeads can only be used with mics which don't require phantom power – dynamics, passive ribbons and condensers which run on internal batteries – which would rule out some or many of the most commonly used shotguns.

Stay cool guys and peace to all.
l

[Bernie Beaudry]

Originally Posted by Colin McDonald

As I am sure many here are fully aware, but in case anyone wasn't:



In other words, FetHeads can only be used with mics which don't require phantom power – dynamics, passive ribbons and condensers which run on internal batteries – which would rule out some or many of the most commonly used shotguns.

Stay cool guys and peace to all.
l

They also make a version for condenser mics that pass phantom power. I just bought two of them and used them on both of my Schoeps.
http://tritonaudio.com/fethead-phantom.html

[Colin McDonald]

Clearly you are more fully aware than I was! :-)

Apologies, and thanks for that information. A bit of Googling shows me that I was not the only one unaware of the Phantom version. Perhaps it needs advertised a bit more effectively since it’s apparently been on the go for at least 6 years.

Every day’s a school day...

[David Peterson]

Originally Posted by Guy Cochran

I'd be looking at the whole chain from mic to recording.

Agreed, everything should be in relative ish balance to each other.

No point buying a Schopes to feed into the lowest of low grade recorders, as that budget should have instead been more evenly spread around.

I've done a brief overview of low budget recorders:

Which Sound Recorder to buy? A guide to various indie priced sound recorders in 2017 – David Peterson


For shotguns, a few quick mentions:
Ultra low budget: secondhand Audio-Technica AT875R
Low budget: Aputure Deity
Mid range: NTG3 / 416
High end: Sanken CS3e
(heaps more options though than just these! CS3e for instance is just the one I personally use)

You also want a 2nd mic to use indoors rather than a shotgun, Curtis Judd has a nice little video on a few options to consider:

5 Boom Microphones for Indoor Dialogue: Cardioid, Super-cardioid, and Hyper-cardioid - YouTube

Personally, I'm using an AKG:

vlog #18: unboxing an AKG Blue Line Series C393! (SE-300B Power Supply + CK93 Hypercardioid Capsule) - YouTube

[David Peterson]

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

$1600 mic to feed a $150 recorder?!

What is being used to capture the video?
What is the recording environment? Studio or field?
What is the ultimate end product and how will it be viewed and heard?
How good does the audio have to be? The expectation for the 6 o-clock news is not the same as for an opera aria.

If you bought a decent $200 mic, what benefit could you get out of the remaining $1400.
Your money, your budget, your product

This is a very key point, too many people forget about opportunity cost:

Opportunity Cost - YouTube

Basically, what are you giving up when you make one choice over another? As none of us have unlimited money or unlimited time! Thus evening is a compromise between different options.

By buying a Schoeps, maybe you're giving up buying an extra channel of wireless, or some essential accessories? Or maybe even there is some non-audio gear you need, such as extra lighting gear.

Thus how much are you gaining by buying a Schoeps vs how much are you missing out?

Law Of Diminishing Marginal Utility is worthwhile keeping in mind as well (can you tell I'm an economics nerd? Ha!):

Praxeology - Episode 10 - The Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility - YouTube

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

I’m with you. I try not to judge but I’m frequently baffled by the posts I read here.

Same.....

[David Peterson]

Originally Posted by Steven Schuldt

Really funny how some criticized me here for spending too much, others for spending too little. Make up your f*cking mind!

It is possible to BOTH spend too much and too little!

Too much in one area, and too little in another area.

Originally Posted by Steven Schuldt

As far as my intended uses, mix of indoor and outdoor, and I figure I can get away with a boom mic outdoors for now if I don't try to capture any usable dialog too far from my subjects. I'll eventually add a proper shotgun, and found some of the suggestions above very helpful.

It is not just about how far away you are.

[David Peterson]

Originally Posted by Don Palomaki

The operative phrase in the original post is "best value" and that means different things to different people6

Near perfect is the enemy of good enough and accounts for maybe 90% of the ultimate cost of things. The audio chain is only as good as the weakest link. And infrequent use may be best served by rental, especially if operating as a business. Thoughts to bear in mind if on a limited budget.

One can drive to work in an '95 Ford, a SmartCar, a BMW or ride in a limo. All four can get one there. The question is how one wants to go, cost, requirement to arrive safely at the end of the trip, and is one trying to send a message to others or reaffirm something to one's self.

Very well put.

Originally Posted by Pete Cofrancesco

Maybe it’s just me but I find it annoying when people ask for purchasing advice when they have already made up their mind and dismiss out of hand any advice given.

I mean look if you want a Schoeps great, they are the Cadillac of mics, no one can dispute their quality but to try to argue the most expensive mic on the market to be a “value” mic...

Like Don said you’re are only as strong as your weakest link.

This also.

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

I did not find Pete's post snarky at all. If "you know about these things" then you would understand his comment. IMHO Tascam, Zoom et all; are capable of recording quality audio to a point. That point is usually around 5 on their pre amp knob. Anything above that introduces noise and defeats the purpose of a high end mic. When you boom you often need pre amps to do their job at higher than average settings. That is what you get when you pay for Sound Devices gear. Your CMC641 is going to sound great....under average conditions. Above average it will suck, just like any other mic going throug amature pre amps.

Lately Tascam's products have become pretty good (such as Tascam DR70D and Tascam DR680mk2) and Zoom's even very good (Zoom F8 and Zoom F4), the gap between them (especially F4/F8) and the higher end stuff is narrowing.

Originally Posted by Steven Schuldt

So your contention about where it's only appropriate to use is basically a complete lie.

In any case—and here I'm talking to the kind people who responded helpfully to this post and past the assholes that have descended on this thread to do what they do—below find a useful link. Assholes are everywhere in American life now, and they are determined to make you one of them via their highly contagious affliction. The below article from September of 2017 on "peak asshole" goes into detail about how to spot them, and strategies for dealing with them. Good luck!

This Professor Has a Theory on Why 2017 Is Filled With Jerks

I feel a mirror would be appropriate here....