audio 101 for films

Matthew Wilson · October 26th, 2005, 01:45 PM

Yeah, that makes sense. Fortunately for Quoc, it sounds like he has the budget and sense to get both. I know I wish I could have afforded them at the beginning of my project. I can already see some real difficulties with some of my early sound in post, particularly interiors.

Quoc Peyrot · October 26th, 2005, 03:58 PM

Thanks again for the advices to both of you.
So basically, if we forget about any budgets, what both of you are saying is to get the Schoeps for indoor, and a shotgun which is around the same price for outdoor (Senn 416, MKH60 or Sanken CS3-e)?

So now of course, I'm wondering which one between these three is the best choice. I read on http://www.dvfreelancer.com/articles..._shootout.html that

Quote:

The Sennheiser MKH-416 is very similar to the MKH60 but without the high pass filter, presence boost or -10 db attenuation..The MKH60 was brought out to replace the 416 but demand kept the 416 in production

I'm wondering why people still wanted the 416 if the MKH60 is the same with more features. And then how does it compare with the CS3-e?

Just to clarify, the $5000 budget was completely arbitrary: it was just to give the clue that the budget was not really limited to 1000$ but at the same time I didn't want to buy a $10,000 mic - in case such mic could cost that much ;) . No matter what I (we) buy, it will progressively be over the next few months. We managed to get reasonable sounds with a $300 Senn shotgun mic until now, so there is no rush to suddently buy everything. That's why I want the best, I don't want to rush on a mic because I'm $500 short, whereas I could get a mic which would last 10 years by just waiting a few more months. I think that's make sense, isn't it?

--
Quoc

Marco Leavitt · October 26th, 2005, 04:31 PM

The 416 has been an industry standard for so long there's kind of a cult that's built up around the thing. The MKH60 was meant to be a replacement, but so many people were die hard 416 fans Sennheiser brought the thing back. I don't think you can go wrong with either mic. You should be able to get a 416 for a fairly reasonable price used. There's really a lot of them out there, and they are legendarily rugged. The CS3e is kind of an oddball mic. It actually has three elements in an array, so it isn't a typical interference tube shotgun. The vendor I bought mine from said that he now sells far more CS3es than 416s, but who knows, he may have a better margin on Sanken and just pushes them more. I went with the CS3e because I wanted a medium shotgun with the absolute most side rejection, which it is reputed to have, rivaling some of the long guns. It also has the reputation of being unusually useable indoors, and my experiences with it have born that out as well, but I still run into problems in some environments. Frankly, I love this mic and plan to buy another one. That said, many people profess to simply love the sound of the 416. The CS3e has kind of a fat sound that some people don't care for. For me it's more a question of utility than beauty. I'd really like to check out the Schoeps, because it would be nice to have a shotgun that sounds as pretty as my hypercardiods. I think you'll find with all these mics there are people who are intensely passionate about each one. Why not rent them all and see how you like them? I believe you're in the Bay Area, so it shouldn't be a problem finding a dealer.

Matthew Wilson · October 26th, 2005, 05:29 PM

Take Marco's advice - rent (or borrow) before you buy. I think that small investment can go a long way to helping you decide. I have an MKH 50, 416, and MKH 70. They all sound great and match very well. I've never even tried the MKH 60, but from what I've heard others say, there is something about it that sounds different. Apparently, it doesn't match the 50 or 70 well. For what it's worth, the 60 is lighter than the 416, but I don't think you can go wrong with the sound from a 416, and Marco's right, their are really good deals for them on the used market.

Marco Leavitt · October 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM

Wow Matt. That's quite a collection. How would you rate the 416, AT4073 and MKH70 on indoor performance?

Matthew Wilson · October 26th, 2005, 07:16 PM

They all suffer indoors compared to a hyper, but when mic'd close, the 4073 does pretty good. It actually cuts really well with the AT4053 hyper. I've only used the 416 a little indoors at close distance and it sounded good as well. I've never tried to use the 70 indoors.

Ty Ford · October 27th, 2005, 07:15 PM

Then there's the new Schoeps shotgun. $1795. wow!

Regards,

Ty Ford

Quoc Peyrot · October 27th, 2005, 10:16 PM

Yes, but I didn't find any reviews for the schoeps shotgun. I'm sure it's good, but is it worth the extra$ ?

Btw, I was wondering, is the bose headphone (the one with the noise reduction that frequent flyer love) a good headphone for sound in filmmaking, or is it only good to listen to music in a plane? :)

Ty Ford · October 28th, 2005, 08:21 AM

The Schoeps just came out two weeks ago. One arrived yesterday for me. I heard it at the AES show in NY. On the floor, it sounded very Schoepsy...that's a good thing.

Unless you have something weird going on. Use the Sony MDR 7506 headphones.

Regards,

Ty

Marco Leavitt · October 28th, 2005, 08:30 AM

Lucky guy Ty. Looking forward to more of your impressions about the new Schoeps. Is it going to make you put away your 416?

Ty Ford · October 28th, 2005, 09:14 AM

That assumes I buy it. Reviewers typically don't get to keep expensive pieces of gear. Right now I'm waiting on my (to be paid for) Sachtler DV 6 tripod and head. They cost about the same as the Schoeps.

I will first ask trade magazines for commissions to write a paid review. When that happens, I wait until the magazine is published before posting the review on my site. That's only fair to the magazine.

Will I toss the 416 in the dust bin? .......only time will tell............:)

Regards,

TyFord

Marco Leavitt · October 28th, 2005, 09:39 AM

I guess I misunderstood your comment. I thought you already bought one.

Kirk Candlish · November 2nd, 2005, 11:10 PM

I just read through this thread and find it interesting that the 416 is only considered an outside mic by you guys. Damn near every ADR session I've been on a 416 was used, replacing interior and exterior dialog.

Or is there something about ADR and minimizing ambient that makes the 416 a favorite ?

Matthew Wilson · November 3rd, 2005, 01:13 AM

I can understand it being used that way. In a controlled environment with close miking, I think it sounds really great. I think what we were generally refering to is using it in general untreated interiors where echo from shotguns is generally a problem; however, I have been able to get very good audio inside when the room has little echo.

Marco Leavitt · November 3rd, 2005, 08:55 AM

That's my understanding as well. Voice over people use them in specially treated rooms at a very close distance. I've always wondered why. Perhaps the proximity effect is used to advantage somehow with that mic? It's usually considered a liability with shotguns. Perhaps we'll hear from Ty. I believe that's what he uses in his studio.

October 26th, 2005, 01:45 PM	#16
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	Yeah, that makes sense. Fortunately for Quoc, it sounds like he has the budget and sense to get both. I know I wish I could have afforded them at the beginning of my project. I can already see some real difficulties with some of my early sound in post, particularly interiors. __________________ MW

October 26th, 2005, 05:29 PM	#19
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	Take Marco's advice - rent (or borrow) before you buy. I think that small investment can go a long way to helping you decide. I have an MKH 50, 416, and MKH 70. They all sound great and match very well. I've never even tried the MKH 60, but from what I've heard others say, there is something about it that sounds different. Apparently, it doesn't match the 50 or 70 well. For what it's worth, the 60 is lighter than the 416, but I don't think you can go wrong with the sound from a 416, and Marco's right, their are really good deals for them on the used market. __________________ MW

October 26th, 2005, 07:16 PM	#21
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	They all suffer indoors compared to a hyper, but when mic'd close, the 4073 does pretty good. It actually cuts really well with the AT4053 hyper. I've only used the 416 a little indoors at close distance and it sounded good as well. I've never tried to use the 70 indoors. __________________ MW

October 27th, 2005, 07:15 PM	#22
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Then there's the new Schoeps shotgun. $1795. wow! Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

October 28th, 2005, 08:21 AM	#24
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	The Schoeps just came out two weeks ago. One arrived yesterday for me. I heard it at the AES show in NY. On the floor, it sounded very Schoepsy...that's a good thing. Unless you have something weird going on. Use the Sony MDR 7506 headphones. Regards, Ty __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

October 26th, 2005, 04:31 PM	#18
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	The 416 has been an industry standard for so long there's kind of a cult that's built up around the thing. The MKH60 was meant to be a replacement, but so many people were die hard 416 fans Sennheiser brought the thing back. I don't think you can go wrong with either mic. You should be able to get a 416 for a fairly reasonable price used. There's really a lot of them out there, and they are legendarily rugged. The CS3e is kind of an oddball mic. It actually has three elements in an array, so it isn't a typical interference tube shotgun. The vendor I bought mine from said that he now sells far more CS3es than 416s, but who knows, he may have a better margin on Sanken and just pushes them more. I went with the CS3e because I wanted a medium shotgun with the absolute most side rejection, which it is reputed to have, rivaling some of the long guns. It also has the reputation of being unusually useable indoors, and my experiences with it have born that out as well, but I still run into problems in some environments. Frankly, I love this mic and plan to buy another one. That said, many people profess to simply love the sound of the 416. The CS3e has kind of a fat sound that some people don't care for. For me it's more a question of utility than beauty. I'd really like to check out the Schoeps, because it would be nice to have a shotgun that sounds as pretty as my hypercardiods. I think you'll find with all these mics there are people who are intensely passionate about each one. Why not rent them all and see how you like them? I believe you're in the Bay Area, so it shouldn't be a problem finding a dealer.

October 26th, 2005, 05:52 PM	#20
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Wow Matt. That's quite a collection. How would you rate the 416, AT4073 and MKH70 on indoor performance?

October 27th, 2005, 10:16 PM	#23
Quoc Peyrot Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 81	Yes, but I didn't find any reviews for the schoeps shotgun. I'm sure it's good, but is it worth the extra$ ? Btw, I was wondering, is the bose headphone (the one with the noise reduction that frequent flyer love) a good headphone for sound in filmmaking, or is it only good to listen to music in a plane? :)

October 28th, 2005, 08:30 AM	#25
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Lucky guy Ty. Looking forward to more of your impressions about the new Schoeps. Is it going to make you put away your 416?

October 28th, 2005, 09:14 AM	#26
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	That assumes I buy it. Reviewers typically don't get to keep expensive pieces of gear. Right now I'm waiting on my (to be paid for) Sachtler DV 6 tripod and head. They cost about the same as the Schoeps. I will first ask trade magazines for commissions to write a paid review. When that happens, I wait until the magazine is published before posting the review on my site. That's only fair to the magazine. Will I toss the 416 in the dust bin? .......only time will tell............:) Regards, TyFord __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

October 28th, 2005, 09:39 AM	#27
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	I guess I misunderstood your comment. I thought you already bought one.

November 2nd, 2005, 11:10 PM	#28
Kirk Candlish Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Southern, CA Posts: 198	I just read through this thread and find it interesting that the 416 is only considered an outside mic by you guys. Damn near every ADR session I've been on a 416 was used, replacing interior and exterior dialog. Or is there something about ADR and minimizing ambient that makes the 416 a favorite ?

November 3rd, 2005, 01:13 AM	#29
Matthew Wilson Major Player Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 259	I can understand it being used that way. In a controlled environment with close miking, I think it sounds really great. I think what we were generally refering to is using it in general untreated interiors where echo from shotguns is generally a problem; however, I have been able to get very good audio inside when the room has little echo. __________________ MW

November 3rd, 2005, 08:55 AM	#30
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	That's my understanding as well. Voice over people use them in specially treated rooms at a very close distance. I've always wondered why. Perhaps the proximity effect is used to advantage somehow with that mic? It's usually considered a liability with shotguns. Perhaps we'll hear from Ty. I believe that's what he uses in his studio.