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September 5th, 2015, 04:43 PM | #16 | |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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Resist, mightily, the urge to make this complicated. Resist the urge to plunge into stereo, or far worse, 5.1+ multichannel. You've got to crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run. And you've more than got your hands full with just the video. You really should be doing this with a full time audio recordist. Since you haven't got one, keep it extremely simple. Or your video will suffer. Been there, done that, wasn't pretty. Just sayin'. |
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September 5th, 2015, 04:45 PM | #17 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
It's been a LONG time since I did live audio, I'll defer specific mic suggestions to the others here (or your buddy) with what a current good choice would be...
I'd guess you can find a two mic mount for X/Y, but a 3 might be a special item you'd have to cobble up, several of us on DVi have custom cobbled 3+ camera heads... FWIW, two songs is a lot less stressing than a whole CD "set", so you may well be able to pull this off brilliantly! Capture will be tricky, but there's a fair amount of "post" magic possible if your initial tracks are decent. This may sound rather silly, but in the end, do your best to find the sweet spot in the cathedral (walk the room, sit where it feels "right"), put your best recorder/ambient mic setup at that spot (double check how it sounds with a set of headphones), you might never need the "close mics"... though you should have them for post. Most modern venues are designed for a good "house" audio experience, and since you won't be fighting crowd noise, it may be possible to get something surprisingly decent for demo purposes from a well placed recorder out in the seats! |
September 5th, 2015, 04:57 PM | #18 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
@Bruce -
What about setting two of the Sankens in an X/Y pattern optimized to the width/arc of the choir? To get a bit of "stereo" (yeah, phase cancellation and all them additional headaches, but...)? I see he's got 3 of them... maybe one "mono", two in an X/Y and cross fingers, eyes, and other appropriate appendages? I'm presuming they are small since they are lavs, so... one stand... If you think they might work in that configuration, it could cover the dry side of the equation, add a house/ambient and sync it in post, might pull off a decent 5.1 "mix" with minimal equipment? All dependent on editing chops, of course! |
September 5th, 2015, 05:10 PM | #19 | |||||||||
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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Unfortunately, the friend isn't into audio as much as he's the owner of a large production company that does commercial, event and wedding videography... I don't think he's a wizard of audio as such, but definitely knowledgeable enough to produce good films. I will ask him, but I'm guessing that an audio forum contains people who are more knowledgeable... Quote:
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If so, I am considering getting two Shure SM81-LC mics and positioning them in an X Y configuration? That way, I'll have three different options of sound for the edit and thus, three times more likely to be happy in the edit? Quote:
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September 5th, 2015, 07:30 PM | #20 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
Just a thought - any possibility of a higher fixed camera position and a lower mic stand close to the conductor (or further back if it sounds good - the further back it is the greater the odds it will be out of view of a higher camera, Or it will just look lower and therefore less intrusive.) Whenever I have a chance I tend to put the main camera in the balcony and a single M-S or X-Y mic set behind the conductor. This way with the mics lower than the camera the mics don't get in the way of the performers' faces and are mostly rather unnoticeable as they're behind the conductor. Of course I don't usually record in a cathedral either
I like mics a bit higher than the group, but on the other hand the normal audience in a setting like this is sitting a bit below the performers and if it sounds good to the audience it might sound good to the mics. Worth a try. I've sometimes had good luck with mics back in the audience in a large hall, but the reverberation characteristics of this space would worry me so I'd start close to the conductor and move back and listen. The conductor will balance the group so it sounds right to him/her so I wouldn't worry too much about not hearing the folks on the end |
September 5th, 2015, 08:05 PM | #21 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
Yes, we typically like to position choir microphones significantly ABOVE the singers heads. However in such a "wet" space you may be able to get away with something much lower-profile. Perhaps even a single-point stereo mic(s) just ahead of the conductor's music stand, etc.
Oh, and a GoPro on the conductor attached to the her music stand (or to that mic stand just in front of her) makes an exciting angle for insert shots. Especially aimed up to see that ceiling. For example.... |
September 6th, 2015, 12:53 AM | #22 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
M+S and X-Y are the safest approaches, as they're co-incident. You won't have to worry about phasing issues that come about from spaced mics. M+S is the safer of the two, as you can go mono and add the amount of stereo effect that you prefer in post. With X-Y, you get what you get.
The main thing isn't technical at all. It's to play down expectations. Way down. That way, if the sound is poor, nobody will complain. If it happens to sound great, you're a hero. Just make sure to monitor things and set the gain well. If there's no audio or the audio clips, it doesn't matter how good and well-placed your mics were. Best of luck!
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September 6th, 2015, 05:04 AM | #23 | |||
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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I'm fascinated by the MS way of doing this, and have watched the following YouTube video, which I assume shows how to do it? Despite my interest, it looks like a complicated method for a first time recording by the audio engineer in question, who has very little understanding of sound beyond recording dialogue (me). I've found a mic that does this on its own: The Pearl MS 8CL... but I don't think I could afford such a microphone. Thanks for your considerations! If possible, could you disclose a recommendation for two mics that you would purchase to do the MS recording? Quote:
The GoPro idea is unreal! I love it! I think that'll be a great angle to use! I will have a look to see if I can find a clamp to attach to the conductor's stand! Thanks!! Quote:
Can anyone recommend stands, mics, etc. that you would go for that would equate to under $1000? Again, I'm looking to buy quality products, as I have with the mics that I have purchased already (11Ds and 416p). Thanks everyone. I'll continue to learn and read as much as possible over the next few hours! |
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September 6th, 2015, 05:46 AM | #24 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
Also, as my Sennheiser 416p is a hypercardioid microphone, does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir that I'm shooting? And thus, should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?
Thanks again, everyone! |
September 6th, 2015, 08:37 AM | #25 | |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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It's issues like this that have me urging the OP to go mono. He doesn't have time to learn all the ins and outs of stereo. And if this thing is going to to be used for web content, most of the devices used to view it are mono anyway (smartphones, tablets, etc.). |
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September 6th, 2015, 08:43 AM | #26 |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
"Sennheiser 416p , does that mean that the pick up would be too narrow for the choir "
- Yes.. and reverb would be a freak'n nightmare. An inherent negative characteristic of interference tube mics in 'live' spaces. " should I buy a figure 8 mic to go along with a new cardioid mic?" - Only if you wish to go the M/S route.. NOT recommended for the inexperienced. |
September 6th, 2015, 08:45 AM | #27 | |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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Going in with an extremely tiny mic leaves me a bit open to criticism, and I also require the mics to stay in place in a position where I cannot see them, so I'd much prefer being able to see the mic pointing towards the back of the choir with my eyes from any position, and monitoring with my headphones... Whilst I realise there's a complicated aspect of stereo, would you definitely reject the idea of using MS setup? My friend, who I mentioned earlier, has suggested two cardioid microphones at either side (both left and right), as well as one above the choir. He's filmed there before, a couple of years ago, and this was the setup he chose then. I don't think he has the film to hand to show me though. I'd prefer to use a simpler setup than this, and even have an MS setup, and a mono setup too... but I understand that I lack time. I've watched a tonne of videos now, but obviously still have no experience. |
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September 6th, 2015, 08:47 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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September 6th, 2015, 09:21 AM | #29 | ||
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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How are you going to monitor the audio? Not monitoring the audio is the basic equivalent of using the camera without looking at the viewfinder. You wouldn't do that, would you? Quote:
XY is seldom the answer in a decent acoustical space, because it seldom does a good job rendering that space. The use of cards effects placement, often cardioid arrays like XY and ORTF end up farther back than omni arrays. And you also have to check on balance because of the fall off due to the cardioid polar patterns (depends on your mic placement and the ensemble's staging). Then there's the low end roll off from cards which may have you doing some more EQ in post. I could go on, but I'm just showing you the tip of the stereo iceberg here. However, if you do plan on continuing down this path, I would point you toward a stereo pair of Shure KSM141. These sound really quite good, and will be useful to you after this initial session, and at this initial session you can use them in omni for an AB pair if you really and truly have to go stereo. Which I don't recommend. But if you do decide you just absolutely have to go stereo, I still suggest using one of your COS-11ds for a mono recording also as I described earlier. Because I'm fairly certain the mono recording will save your bacon. Which is the purpose of any backup, yes? |
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September 6th, 2015, 09:28 AM | #30 | ||
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Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo
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Thanks for the point towards the Shures, but the more you discuss the disadvantages of stereo and an amateur, I am coming round more and more to the mono recording and keeping things simple. Thanks for taking the time to help me, Bruce. I really appreciate being able to be advised by someone who is a much more knowledgeable other. Thanks!!! *EDIT* Having read more about the Shure mics, would you suggest buying one of those over the 11Ds, as they can also be configured as omni directional microphones? And I assume that with a large diaphragm, they will be much more competent at getting better audio. *EDITX2* Unfortunately, the Shure KSM 141 is out of stock in the UK and supposedly discontinued. Did Shure replace this model with a different one? Thanks! |
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