Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo

Steven Digges · September 26th, 2015, 06:41 PM

Craig,

Here is the mixer for you:

The Sound Devices 302 Field Mixer

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292980-REG/Sound_Devices_302_302_Portable_3_Channel.html
You have three broadcast quality mics. This mixer will complete your signal flow without killing the quality of the mics signal. Sound Devices is the professional audio industry gold standard.

When you buy a quality mixer your money makes a difference. What you are paying for is good pre amps. Cheap pre amps may be fine at low levels but as soon as you need to crank them up and get power out of them they fall apart and introduce noise.

Here is a real world scenario for you. At weddings it is common to put a wireless mic on the groom but not the bride. When you go to post some guys use the audio from the grooms mic to pick up the brides vows and boost with their NLE, introducing noise. With a mixer like this you can "ride the gain" and when the bride speaks you can boost the pre amps and record a clean signal. Audio is all about garbage in garbage out. There is nothing better than a good clean signal in post.

When recording audio in the field you have one single minded goal. Record a clean and true signal. Audio sweetening to adjust the sound for the ear takes place in post. Your Zoom is a consumer device. But, this mixer would enable you to feed it a clean signal and keep your Zoom pre amps down at acceptable levels. So, one of the real benefits of this is to be able to get the real benefits of your good mics when conditions are less than perfect. Plus you use cameras with no real world audio capability. This mixer would let you use your three mics simultaneously and feed anything you want. Audio is about signal flow. It will only be as good as the worst thing that processes the signal.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Jim Andrada · September 26th, 2015, 07:11 PM

I used a 302 for years. Finally sold it because I only regularly use two mics these days and the SD 702 is fine without the mixer in front of it. But it was a great little mixer and I can't recommend it highly enough.

Craig McKenna · September 28th, 2015, 10:14 AM

Looks amazing, Steve.

I don't have any wireless mic controls though, so I may need to wait a few years before making this jump. Unfortunately, it's all about being conservative now, as I look to jump into full time videography. I know the first few years are going to be really tough, so I'm just hoping to survive.

The equipment that I have now enables me to do the job. The only things I'd like to get now include some extra back up audio equipment, as well as a super wide angle lens. Then it's a year of saving for a new Mac and a Thunderbolt drive with loads of space to power me into the future. I'm waiting on the new Mac Pros though.

I feel like the foundations of a business are coming together... just need to keep plugging. I just hope I can make enough to continue investing into my equipment in the future.

Thanks so much for your help and helping me to understand the beneftis though... they seem to be a particularly incredible device. Unfortunately, we pay a lot more for one in the UK - £1599 = $2,400. Insane how much we get taxed in the UK considering the one you posted is $750 cheaper! :)

Thanks again to everyone in the thread... I am really pleased with the outcome for this project, and would like to thank you for your help and support in achieving a successful project.

I'll be back! :)

Craig

Gary Nattrass · September 28th, 2015, 11:34 AM

The 302 is a great field mixer and top quality but if you are just wanting a flexible portable multi tasking mixer have a look at the Behringer 1002B: https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/analogue-...tKvRoCDJTw_wcB

OK and before everyone says it ain't the quality of a sound devices it certainly isn't but I have still done Live to air and many recordings that have been on the mainstream BBC and other channels with this mixer feeding my panasonic P2 cameras.

Less than £100 and it is battery operated too.

Craig McKenna · September 28th, 2015, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Nattrass

The 302 is a great field mixer and top quality but if you are just wanting a flexible portable multi tasking mixer have a look at the Behringer 1002B: https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/analogue-...tKvRoCDJTw_wcB

OK and before everyone says it ain't the quality of a sound devices it certainly isn't but I have still done Live to air and many recordings that have been on the mainstream BBC and other channels with this mixer feeding my panasonic P2 cameras.

Less than £100 and it is battery operated too.

Great suggestion, Gary! Would I get tonnes better audio with this over my Zoom H5?

Are there any particularly great tutorials to get the best out of mixers? How do Edirols compare? I remember Rob Adams sharing that they were his choice as mixers.

Mark Fry · October 1st, 2015, 01:31 PM

Having read through the whole 10 pages over the last couple of evenings, I've just watched the finished products on Vimeo (listening through a pair of Tannoy Reveal active near-field monitors) and I'm hugely impressed, both by the audio and the video. Some random comments:

It's really helpful to see just what can be done with "pan-&-scan" on the AX100 4k footage.

The sound is superb. The microphones don't intrude in the pictures, and to anyone who knows a bit about audio, they confirm that the conductor takes recording seriously - no bad thing in a promo.

On reflection, the Go-pro shots are a mistake, though not terrible. I'm really pleased to have seen the version of If Ye Love Me with them included, though, to illustrate the points made about them earlier.

My Tannoy speakers were an end-of-line bargin (a Mark-2 version had just been launched) that I bought 10 years ago. Like mics and lenses, and unlike PCs and video cameras, a good set of speakers will last you for many years. I feed computers, DVD player, TVs, cameras etc though a little Phonic mixer to them.

I'm not sure about the suggestion of a £100 Behringer field mixer instead of the SD. Don't shell out without listening carefully - and if you are happy, make sure you buy the one you hear. I've been caught out with cheap gear that way in the past! The main reason for using a field mixer is to get really good, quiet preamps. Are the Behringer's preamps actually any better than those in a Zoom or a camera? My experience is that the preamps in a good video camera are not that bad. Certainly, my Canon XH-A1 is quiet enough not to be audible on a normal TV.

Jon Fairhurst · October 1st, 2015, 03:04 PM

Mark,

It's very cool that you read through the 10 pages from the beginning. This thread might win the "best DVInfo success story of the year" award. The key? That so many recommended hiring an audio professional - and the client actually did so. Too often the experts recommend that a poster step up the game by two notches only to find that the client took three steps in the other direction. In this case, the results speak (and sing) for themselves. :)

Steven Digges · October 1st, 2015, 04:04 PM

John,

You are absolutely correct. This tread represents everything good about what this forum can do. And the audio forum here at DVINFO has some true experts (I am not one of them) that are willing to spend their time and offer their expertise to anyone who actually listens.

Chris Hurd and others have done a great job over the years of keeping the trolls away.

Craig, Don't add it here, a new tread would be in order. But I know you have a fashion show shoot coming up. My first one blew me away. I could not believe how fast those models are really walking. It is like a sprint with a sashay! You have what you need to do the job. If you have any questions just ask....people here are more than willing to help those that at least consider the validity of input received.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Craig McKenna · October 1st, 2015, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Fry

Having read through the whole 10 pages over the last couple of evenings, I've just watched the finished products on Vimeo (listening through a pair of Tannoy Reveal active near-field monitors) and I'm hugely impressed, both by the audio and the video. Some random comments:

It's really helpful to see just what can be done with "pan-&-scan" on the AX100 4k footage.

The sound is superb. The microphones don't intrude in the pictures, and to anyone who knows a bit about audio, they confirm that the conductor takes recording seriously - no bad thing in a promo.

On reflection, the Go-pro shots are a mistake, though not terrible. I'm really pleased to have seen the version of If Ye Love Me with them included, though, to illustrate the points made about them earlier.

My Tannoy speakers were an end-of-line bargin (a Mark-2 version had just been launched) that I bought 10 years ago. Like mics and lenses, and unlike PCs and video cameras, a good set of speakers will last you for many years. I feed computers, DVD player, TVs, cameras etc though a little Phonic mixer to them.

I'm not sure about the suggestion of a £100 Behringer field mixer instead of the SD. Don't shell out without listening carefully - and if you are happy, make sure you buy the one you hear. I've been caught out with cheap gear that way in the past! The main reason for using a field mixer is to get really good, quiet preamps. Are the Behringer's preamps actually any better than those in a Zoom or a camera? My experience is that the preamps in a good video camera are not that bad. Certainly, my Canon XH-A1 is quiet enough not to be audible on a normal TV.

Thank you for your time and comments, Mark. Great to hear that this thread has been entertaining and fulfilled its purpose too. I have been blessed by the presence of so many here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

Mark,

It's very cool that you read through the 10 pages from the beginning. This thread might win the "best DVInfo success story of the year" award. The key? That so many recommended hiring an audio professional - and the client actually did so. Too often the experts recommend that a poster step up the game by two notches only to find that the client took three steps in the other direction. In this case, the results speak (and sing) for themselves. :)

Thanks Jon! :) The client definitely did the best thing by listening to yours (and everyone else's) advice.

The client is thrilled by the films, and has submitted them to the conductor course that she'd like to be a part of. As she currently resides at the best University in England, I would think that she stands a good chance. Only 10 places are available though, and I think many more than that apply. Hopefully this video will at least give her the opportunity to be watched and listened to (thanks to the audio engineer). Finger's crossed.

I think I have had a few 'success' stories here due to the posters' insightful help before shooting different events. As Steven states, a fashion shoot is next.

Thanks again for all your help, Jon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Digges

John,

You are absolutely correct. This tread represents everything good about what this forum can do. And the audio forum here at DVINFO has some true experts (I am not one of them) that are willing to spend their time and offer their expertise to anyone who actually listens.

Chris Hurd and others have done a great job over the years of keeping the trolls away.

Craig, Don't add it here, a new tread would be in order. But I know you have a fashion show shoot coming up. My first one blew me away. I could not believe how fast those models are really walking. It is like a sprint with a sashay! You have what you need to do the job. If you have any questions just ask....people here are more than willing to help those that at least consider the validity of input received.

Kind Regards,

Steve

Most definitely. Love this forum!

Hahaha that does not help me!!! :D

I would be willing to start that thread, but where would you advise that I post it?

My idea for that shoot is to use an AX100 facing down the catwalk, as that will have lots of depth of field. Then I'm going to use the slider and tripods around the catwalk to get the best close up shots. If I can get shots of the feet, the hand bags and the little details such as this, then move to a higher ground to get the head shots, then I think I might have a reasonable highlight. The delivery is only 30-60 seconds for a Facebook post, but the client(s) are highly regarded in my town, and so a good job could lead to some good leads.

Thanks again for all your help, Steve. You sell yourself short - I am sure that you're very capable in the audio department!

Kind regards,

Craig

September 26th, 2015, 06:41 PM	#136
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo Craig, Here is the mixer for you: The Sound Devices 302 Field Mixer http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/292980-REG/Sound_Devices_302_302_Portable_3_Channel.html You have three broadcast quality mics. This mixer will complete your signal flow without killing the quality of the mics signal. Sound Devices is the professional audio industry gold standard. When you buy a quality mixer your money makes a difference. What you are paying for is good pre amps. Cheap pre amps may be fine at low levels but as soon as you need to crank them up and get power out of them they fall apart and introduce noise. Here is a real world scenario for you. At weddings it is common to put a wireless mic on the groom but not the bride. When you go to post some guys use the audio from the grooms mic to pick up the brides vows and boost with their NLE, introducing noise. With a mixer like this you can "ride the gain" and when the bride speaks you can boost the pre amps and record a clean signal. Audio is all about garbage in garbage out. There is nothing better than a good clean signal in post. When recording audio in the field you have one single minded goal. Record a clean and true signal. Audio sweetening to adjust the sound for the ear takes place in post. Your Zoom is a consumer device. But, this mixer would enable you to feed it a clean signal and keep your Zoom pre amps down at acceptable levels. So, one of the real benefits of this is to be able to get the real benefits of your good mics when conditions are less than perfect. Plus you use cameras with no real world audio capability. This mixer would let you use your three mics simultaneously and feed anything you want. Audio is about signal flow. It will only be as good as the worst thing that processes the signal. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!

September 26th, 2015, 07:11 PM	#137
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo I used a 302 for years. Finally sold it because I only regularly use two mics these days and the SD 702 is fine without the mixer in front of it. But it was a great little mixer and I can't recommend it highly enough.

September 28th, 2015, 10:14 AM	#138
Craig McKenna Major Player Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Liverpool Posts: 495	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo Looks amazing, Steve. I don't have any wireless mic controls though, so I may need to wait a few years before making this jump. Unfortunately, it's all about being conservative now, as I look to jump into full time videography. I know the first few years are going to be really tough, so I'm just hoping to survive. The equipment that I have now enables me to do the job. The only things I'd like to get now include some extra back up audio equipment, as well as a super wide angle lens. Then it's a year of saving for a new Mac and a Thunderbolt drive with loads of space to power me into the future. I'm waiting on the new Mac Pros though. I feel like the foundations of a business are coming together... just need to keep plugging. I just hope I can make enough to continue investing into my equipment in the future. Thanks so much for your help and helping me to understand the beneftis though... they seem to be a particularly incredible device. Unfortunately, we pay a lot more for one in the UK - £1599 = $2,400. Insane how much we get taxed in the UK considering the one you posted is $750 cheaper! :) Thanks again to everyone in the thread... I am really pleased with the outcome for this project, and would like to thank you for your help and support in achieving a successful project. I'll be back! :) Craig

September 28th, 2015, 11:34 AM	#139
Gary Nattrass Trustee Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cornsay Durham UK Posts: 1,992	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo The 302 is a great field mixer and top quality but if you are just wanting a flexible portable multi tasking mixer have a look at the Behringer 1002B: https://www.bax-shop.co.uk/analogue-...tKvRoCDJTw_wcB OK and before everyone says it ain't the quality of a sound devices it certainly isn't but I have still done Live to air and many recordings that have been on the mainstream BBC and other channels with this mixer feeding my panasonic P2 cameras. Less than £100 and it is battery operated too. __________________ Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/

October 1st, 2015, 01:31 PM	#141
Mark Fry Major Player Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 425	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo Having read through the whole 10 pages over the last couple of evenings, I've just watched the finished products on Vimeo (listening through a pair of Tannoy Reveal active near-field monitors) and I'm hugely impressed, both by the audio and the video. Some random comments: It's really helpful to see just what can be done with "pan-&-scan" on the AX100 4k footage. The sound is superb. The microphones don't intrude in the pictures, and to anyone who knows a bit about audio, they confirm that the conductor takes recording seriously - no bad thing in a promo. On reflection, the Go-pro shots are a mistake, though not terrible. I'm really pleased to have seen the version of If Ye Love Me with them included, though, to illustrate the points made about them earlier. My Tannoy speakers were an end-of-line bargin (a Mark-2 version had just been launched) that I bought 10 years ago. Like mics and lenses, and unlike PCs and video cameras, a good set of speakers will last you for many years. I feed computers, DVD player, TVs, cameras etc though a little Phonic mixer to them. I'm not sure about the suggestion of a £100 Behringer field mixer instead of the SD. Don't shell out without listening carefully - and if you are happy, make sure you buy the one you hear. I've been caught out with cheap gear that way in the past! The main reason for using a field mixer is to get really good, quiet preamps. Are the Behringer's preamps actually any better than those in a Zoom or a camera? My experience is that the preamps in a good video camera are not that bad. Certainly, my Canon XH-A1 is quiet enough not to be audible on a normal TV. __________________ Steam Age Pictures - videos in aid of railway preservation societies.

October 1st, 2015, 03:04 PM	#142
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo Mark, It's very cool that you read through the 10 pages from the beginning. This thread might win the "best DVInfo success story of the year" award. The key? That so many recommended hiring an audio professional - and the client actually did so. Too often the experts recommend that a poster step up the game by two notches only to find that the client took three steps in the other direction. In this case, the results speak (and sing) for themselves. :) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

October 1st, 2015, 04:04 PM	#143
Steven Digges Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 1,828	Re: Urgent Help: Advice Recording a Choir (16 Members) in a Cathedral 9 Second Echo John, You are absolutely correct. This tread represents everything good about what this forum can do. And the audio forum here at DVINFO has some true experts (I am not one of them) that are willing to spend their time and offer their expertise to anyone who actually listens. Chris Hurd and others have done a great job over the years of keeping the trolls away. Craig, Don't add it here, a new tread would be in order. But I know you have a fashion show shoot coming up. My first one blew me away. I could not believe how fast those models are really walking. It is like a sprint with a sashay! You have what you need to do the job. If you have any questions just ask....people here are more than willing to help those that at least consider the validity of input received. Kind Regards, Steve __________________ www.CorporateShow.com Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!