H4n no longer in wide use by industry?

Jack Zhang · May 7th, 2015, 11:55 PM

My friend's sound guy got back to me and "the new industry standard" is the Sony PCM-M10.

Wait, what?

First off, it has no XLR inputs.

Secondly, see point #1. It may be good for sound pickup with it's internal mics but working with XLR mics is going to be impossible with that unit.

Out of all the choices, the one in the sweet spot is the H5 IMHO. Wish it came with the 90/120 degree mic on the H6, but I like that the included capsules have more dynamic range in louder situations.

Noa Put · May 8th, 2015, 12:20 AM

I still don't understand why you are so focused on the term "industry standard", it's been pointed out here that Sound Devices is the "industry standard" among sound professionals yet now you prefer a H5 which is more a "semi-pro/hobbyist standard", are your clients expecting "industry standard" or do you just want a good not too expensive recorder for your dslr?

Jack Zhang · May 8th, 2015, 12:40 AM

Their words, not mine.

For me, a good balance between quality and price is the H5, which is exactly what you just described it as, which is exactly my expectations.

Somewhere along the lines of communication, I think my friend is confusing the term more than me, since his experience has only been PA stuff or indie films.

Brian P. Reynolds · May 8th, 2015, 02:01 AM

The next question is what 'industry standard' microphones are you going to use?

Jack Zhang · May 8th, 2015, 03:15 AM

Planning on a Rode NTG-1 and a Sony ECM-77B Lav, otherwise it's what the crew gives me.

More often than not it's if I get hired on a DSLR shoot.

Brian P. Reynolds · May 8th, 2015, 03:24 AM

The Rode NTG1 and NTG 2 are NOT regarded as 'industry' standard..... the NTG 3 is.

Also the NTG 1 / 2 are fairly high current draw and will give you VERY poor battery life on the recorder, also do some research on the mics and recorders you intend to use.

There is a HUGE amount if you google "Rode NTG 2 and H4n"

Jack Zhang · May 8th, 2015, 05:13 AM

I need a short mic to mount on camera when used with personal equipment like my EX1R for run & gun situations. The NTG-3 is too long, which means it could snap off the plastic mic holder on my camera.

What's a good short shotgun then? My personal shooting style is ENG, but when I'm hired with DSLR shoots, I want to be able to use the same mic for pickup.

How's the Audio Technica AT875? or the Shure VP82?

Jay Massengill · May 8th, 2015, 05:44 AM

The AT875 is a very good, very short, shotgun-type mic. I've always had great results with it in a variety of situations. Keep in mind that some boompole shockmounts may be too long for it, but camera mounts and smaller shockmounts are fine.

It is phantom-power only, but can run on voltages that range from 11-52v with a very low current draw. So it's not a problem with a regular video camera or a battery-phantom-power adapter.

Battery life of a smaller XLR-capable recorder will be shorter of course if phantom power is on.

Jack Zhang · May 8th, 2015, 05:50 AM

My purposes are not to have it on a boom pole, it's more for setting it down in a fixed position like the camera or a mic stand.

So no one has experience with the VP82?

Jay Massengill · May 8th, 2015, 05:58 AM

I haven't used the VP82, but the specs show it is exactly half as sensitive as the AT875.

Using with a recorder with preamps that need all the help they can get, in a quiet environment, I'd recommend the greater output of the AT875.

If you're using with good, sensitive preamps in a loud environment, the greater sensitivity wouldn't be needed. (And could even be counter-productive without an attenuator.)

Jack Zhang · May 8th, 2015, 06:01 AM

Right, All I have for pre-amps are the H5 and the EX1R onboard XLRs. I'm going with the Audio Technica then.

Steve House · May 8th, 2015, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Zhang

My purposes are not to have it on a boom pole, it's more for setting it down in a fixed position like the camera or a mic stand.

As long as you realize that even shotguns need to be within about 24 inches of the talent to pick up speech properly. For other than general ambient sound recording, on-camera is usually the very last place you want to put your microphone. Shotguns don't increase pickup of the source they're pointed at; rather, they decrease the pickup of sound sources they're not pointed towards.

Jack Zhang · May 8th, 2015, 07:43 AM

I use a wide angle adapter for my camera and tend to do news style interviews if the shotgun is on the camera. That shouldn't be a problem for news situations. As that is the majority of my shooting, it's a better fit than needing a long one for dedicated/dramatic productions.

I currently run with an SM58 for interviews... shows how little I know about audio, right?

Jon Fairhurst · May 8th, 2015, 11:34 AM

I have a friend who shot news for many years. For run 'n gun interviews, he'd control the ENG camera with his right hand, set the lens wide, move in close, and hold the detachable mic in his left hand as close as he could get it to the subject without getting it into the frame. This is a nice trick for getting the mic as close as possible and aiming it directly at the person speaking, rather than at the center of the frame.

But this raises another question. The scenario above is for when there is no dedicated sound person. In my experience, I like using a separate recorder when I have a separate person to operate it. When shooting solo, I much prefer to record into the camera. For this use, I'd go with a juicedLink preamp or with a solid mount recorder like the Fostex DC-R302, which includes a line out to the camera. (With a separate recorder and with multiple pressed to go from Stop to Standby to Record, it's easy to end up with video and no audio. Believe me. I've done this. I've also had the battery die on a recorder without me noticing it as I watch framing.)

But you mentioned that you want four channels. That's at odds with the run 'n gun application. So I'm a bit confused by the use case.

Pete Cofrancesco · May 8th, 2015, 02:53 PM

I didn't understand the need for 4 channels unless he's handling all the audio for a group of shooters. H5 or H6 seems to be the popular choice for this type of work.

I don't get this whole dslr wedding craz. The idea of a bunch of ppl running around with dslrs trying to make a movie set of my wedding... I can only think what pro wedding photographer thinks.

May 7th, 2015, 11:55 PM	#16
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? My friend's sound guy got back to me and "the new industry standard" is the Sony PCM-M10. Wait, what? First off, it has no XLR inputs. Secondly, see point #1. It may be good for sound pickup with it's internal mics but working with XLR mics is going to be impossible with that unit. Out of all the choices, the one in the sweet spot is the H5 IMHO. Wish it came with the 90/120 degree mic on the H6, but I like that the included capsules have more dynamic range in louder situations.

May 8th, 2015, 12:20 AM	#17
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? I still don't understand why you are so focused on the term "industry standard", it's been pointed out here that Sound Devices is the "industry standard" among sound professionals yet now you prefer a H5 which is more a "semi-pro/hobbyist standard", are your clients expecting "industry standard" or do you just want a good not too expensive recorder for your dslr?

May 8th, 2015, 12:40 AM	#18
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? Their words, not mine. For me, a good balance between quality and price is the H5, which is exactly what you just described it as, which is exactly my expectations. Somewhere along the lines of communication, I think my friend is confusing the term more than me, since his experience has only been PA stuff or indie films.

May 8th, 2015, 02:01 AM	#19
Brian P. Reynolds Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 466	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? The next question is what 'industry standard' microphones are you going to use?

May 8th, 2015, 03:15 AM	#20
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? Planning on a Rode NTG-1 and a Sony ECM-77B Lav, otherwise it's what the crew gives me. More often than not it's if I get hired on a DSLR shoot.

May 8th, 2015, 03:24 AM	#21
Brian P. Reynolds Major Player Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 466	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? The Rode NTG1 and NTG 2 are NOT regarded as 'industry' standard..... the NTG 3 is. Also the NTG 1 / 2 are fairly high current draw and will give you VERY poor battery life on the recorder, also do some research on the mics and recorders you intend to use. There is a HUGE amount if you google "Rode NTG 2 and H4n"

May 8th, 2015, 05:13 AM	#22
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? I need a short mic to mount on camera when used with personal equipment like my EX1R for run & gun situations. The NTG-3 is too long, which means it could snap off the plastic mic holder on my camera. What's a good short shotgun then? My personal shooting style is ENG, but when I'm hired with DSLR shoots, I want to be able to use the same mic for pickup. How's the Audio Technica AT875? or the Shure VP82?

May 8th, 2015, 05:44 AM	#23
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? The AT875 is a very good, very short, shotgun-type mic. I've always had great results with it in a variety of situations. Keep in mind that some boompole shockmounts may be too long for it, but camera mounts and smaller shockmounts are fine. It is phantom-power only, but can run on voltages that range from 11-52v with a very low current draw. So it's not a problem with a regular video camera or a battery-phantom-power adapter. Battery life of a smaller XLR-capable recorder will be shorter of course if phantom power is on.

May 8th, 2015, 05:50 AM	#24
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? My purposes are not to have it on a boom pole, it's more for setting it down in a fixed position like the camera or a mic stand. So no one has experience with the VP82?

May 8th, 2015, 05:58 AM	#25
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? I haven't used the VP82, but the specs show it is exactly half as sensitive as the AT875. Using with a recorder with preamps that need all the help they can get, in a quiet environment, I'd recommend the greater output of the AT875. If you're using with good, sensitive preamps in a loud environment, the greater sensitivity wouldn't be needed. (And could even be counter-productive without an attenuator.) Last edited by Jay Massengill; May 8th, 2015 at 09:52 AM.

May 8th, 2015, 06:01 AM	#26
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? Right, All I have for pre-amps are the H5 and the EX1R onboard XLRs. I'm going with the Audio Technica then.

May 8th, 2015, 07:43 AM	#28
Jack Zhang Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Burnaby, BC, Canada Posts: 3,053	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? I use a wide angle adapter for my camera and tend to do news style interviews if the shotgun is on the camera. That shouldn't be a problem for news situations. As that is the majority of my shooting, it's a better fit than needing a long one for dedicated/dramatic productions. I currently run with an SM58 for interviews... shows how little I know about audio, right?

May 8th, 2015, 11:34 AM	#29
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? I have a friend who shot news for many years. For run 'n gun interviews, he'd control the ENG camera with his right hand, set the lens wide, move in close, and hold the detachable mic in his left hand as close as he could get it to the subject without getting it into the frame. This is a nice trick for getting the mic as close as possible and aiming it directly at the person speaking, rather than at the center of the frame. But this raises another question. The scenario above is for when there is no dedicated sound person. In my experience, I like using a separate recorder when I have a separate person to operate it. When shooting solo, I much prefer to record into the camera. For this use, I'd go with a juicedLink preamp or with a solid mount recorder like the Fostex DC-R302, which includes a line out to the camera. (With a separate recorder and with multiple pressed to go from Stop to Standby to Record, it's easy to end up with video and no audio. Believe me. I've done this. I've also had the battery die on a recorder without me noticing it as I watch framing.) But you mentioned that you want four channels. That's at odds with the run 'n gun application. So I'm a bit confused by the use case. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

May 8th, 2015, 02:53 PM	#30
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: H4n no longer in wide use by industry? I didn't understand the need for 4 channels unless he's handling all the audio for a group of shooters. H5 or H6 seems to be the popular choice for this type of work. I don't get this whole dslr wedding craz. The idea of a bunch of ppl running around with dslrs trying to make a movie set of my wedding... I can only think what pro wedding photographer thinks.