Will this mic work on my camcorder?

[Erik Magnusson]

Hello, friends.

I am trying to find a good lapel microphone to use with my Canon VIXIA HF R500 camcorder, as the ones that I have tried so far, do not work. My camera specs are these:

Canon U.S.A. : Consumer & Home Office : VIXIA HF R500

The problem is that I live in Venezuela, South America, where politics and the economy are so bad, that it is not easy to find the right accessories when I need them. I travel back to Atlanta, once a year, and try to pick up better equipment with each trip, but, for the moment, I need to make do with what I can find here locally.

Last trip home, when I bought the camera and began preparing for my first filming project, somebody recommended that I buy a shotgun microphone, and I did. It is the Polsen SCL-1075. As I film now, it has helped a lot, but is still not close enough to the subjects for better sound. If I had a little more help, and a boom, I suppose I could hold it over their heads, but I would rather not go that far, just yet, but only as a last resort. (Below is the link to the Polsen mic)

B&H Photo Video Digital Cameras, Photography, Camcorders

But, as I intended to shoot a series of skits, to use in my line of work, with two or three actors in each--each person using hidden microphones--I had expected to use lapel-microphones mainly, and to use the shotgun only as a back-up, by recording with all of them simultaneously. In fact, in my ignorance, I counted on using little computer microphones like the Genius Handsfree Clip-on Omni-directional Microphone, as they had the same 3.5mm stereo plug...

Amazon.com: Genius Handsfree Clip-on Omni-directional Microphone for Internet Chatting: Computers & Accessories

Of course, as soon as I plugged it into the camcorder, I heard nothing in the test recording. It was too bad, because I had bought two of them for just the purpose. What a dummy.

In fact, while I was first in Atlanta, making general plans for this project, someone had recommended that I buy a little microphone mixer, in order to plug several microphones into my camcorder simultaneously. I ended up buying the Azden CAM-3, listed here...

CAM-3

Unfortunately, as I was counting on the lapel mics that I already had, I did not bother to buy a different type of mic. As it stands, these computer mics do not work at all with this mixer, nor when plugged directly into the camcorder.

I might add that my Polsen shotgun works fine with this Azden mixer, and works fine plugged directly into the camcorder jack, also. The Polsen uses one AA battery inside it. What does not work is the computer mic described above.

In the meantime, I have to make these videos as soon as possible, working with what I can find locally.

I have three digital memo recorders, and I put one in each subject's pocket, attaching the same computer-mics described above, to those recorders, and that worked well for getting sound a lot closer to the subject. (In fact, the quality was not as good as I had hoped, even in "HQ mode") The worst part is that, on my video editor, on the computer, I will have to sync the sound manually from each recorder, to the video, in order to get the best results with these little memo-recorders. I would rather have all the audio going directly into the camera during filming, to avoid that very tedious process, not to mention the touch-up that I have to do on each audio recording, on the computer.

I am assuming that, until now I have been using the wrong "type" of microphone, all along, and not just the wrong model. (Most of you are probably saying, "Duh...no kidding.")

So, in Venezuela I went all over town looking at other possibilities to replace the computer mics, so that I could plug something better into the Azden mixer, and run the mixer into the camera.

While I found lots of big, traditional, hand-held microphones in local stores, I found no "lapel mics" as such (although there are hundreds back home in the U.S.A.). What I did find locally--at two different stores--was the tiny VCM-3 Peavey "Choir microphone"...

Peavey :: VCM? 3 Choir Microphone - White

While it does not have a clip, it looks like a lapel mic, and with the windscreen taken off, it is even smaller. Moreover, because of the nice exchange rate at the moment, on old stock, I could buy this mic for $88 brand new here, which may be cheaper than back home. Nevertheless, the question is "Will it work on my camcorder?"

The store would probably not allow me to return it, if it did not work, so I don't want to take a chance without being sure. After looking at the specs provided through the links above, what would you say? Is it a sure bet or is it rather another wrong choice?

And, by the way, would you also please tell me what the correct "type" of microphone is that I need--in any case--in order for it to work on my camcorder?

If there are several "types" that will work, please tell me what each one is called. Please also explain briefly to me, if you will, why one type works and not another. This way, I will not only understand whether the choir mic will work, but, if I stumble across another mic somewhere, I will immediately know whether it is the right type as well.

If you can excuse my ignorance on this subject, I will be grateful for all the suggestions and information that you can provide--especially whether this Peavey will do.

Sincerely yours,


Erik

[Richard Crowley]

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

.
I am trying to find a good lapel microphone to use with my Canon VIXIA HF R500 camcorder, as the ones that I have tried so far, do not work.

Your camera has a 3.5mm stereo unbalanced mic input jack. Alas most Canon camcorders (including this one most likely) do NOT provide "plug-in power". So that means that whatever microphone you use must be self-powered.

somebody recommended that I buy a shotgun microphone, and I did. It is the Polsen SCL-1075. As I film now, it has helped a lot, but is still not close enough to the subjects for better sound. If I had a little more help, and a boom, I suppose I could hold it over their heads, but I would rather not go that far, just yet, but only as a last resort.

That microphone has its own power in the form of the internal AA battery. But mounting ANY microphone ON the camera is almost never suitable for exactly the reason you have described. It is simply too far away. Microphones are not magic. You can't expect to "aim" them from far away and achieve decent pickup. A "shotgun" mic is not like a zoom lens where it will frame something far away as if it were closer. A shotgun mic is no more sensitive in the forward direction than any other mic. It is special because it is better at rejecting sound (noise) from off-axis.

But, as I intended to shoot a series of skits, to use in my line of work, with two or three actors in each--each person using hidden microphones--I had expected to use lapel-microphones mainly, and to use the shotgun only as a back-up, by recording with all of them simultaneously. In fact, in my ignorance, I counted on using little computer microphones like the Genius Handsfree Clip-on Omni-directional Microphone, as they had the same 3.5mm stereo plug...

Of course, as soon as I plugged it into the camcorder, I heard nothing in the test recording. It was too bad, because I had bought two of them for just the purpose. What a dummy.

If you had a Sony camera (or most others) then it would supply the "plug-in power" at the mic jack and that microphone would have worked.

In fact, while I was first in Atlanta, making general plans for this project, someone had recommended that I buy a little microphone mixer, in order to plug several microphones into my camcorder simultaneously. I ended up buying the Azden CAM-3, listed here...

CAM-3

Unfortunately, as I was counting on the lapel mics that I already had, I did not bother to buy a different type of mic. As it stands, these computer mics do not work at all with this mixer, nor when plugged directly into the camcorder.

I might add that my Polsen shotgun works fine with this Azden mixer, and works fine plugged directly into the camcorder jack, also. The Polsen uses one AA battery inside it. What does not work is the computer mic described above.

That Azden mixer is completely passive and does not supply (or even pass-through) any kind of "plug-in power" for the microphones. That is why the Polsen shotgun mic works, because it is independently powered.

What I did find locally--at two different stores--was the tiny VCM-3 Peavey "Choir microphone"... While it does not have a clip, it looks like a lapel mic, and with the windscreen taken off, it is even smaller. Moreover, because of the nice exchange rate at the moment, on old stock, I could buy this mic for $88 brand new here, which may be cheaper than back home. Nevertheless, the question is "Will it work on my camcorder?"

No. At least not without some additional source of power. That Peavey VCM-3 microphone requires full "phantom power" and uses a full-size XLR output connector.

You need either self-powered microphones, or something that provides power to the mics that you have.

An inexpensive option for self-powered microphones would Something like Audio-Technica ATR-3350 which is around US$30 at Amazon.

If it were me, I would add a few inexpensive components to the little Azden mixer to provide plug-in power to your existing microphones. But most people aren't able to handle that kind of "hack".

Or some kind of external battery box for each mic like this: Church Audio - Battery Boxes
Although those seem fantastically over-priced considering that there is only $2-3 worth of parts in there.
You could save a lot of money if you could find an electronics hacker that could mod your little mixer, etc.

[Greg Miller]

+1 on everything Mr. Crowley said.

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

I ended up buying the Azden CAM-3, listed here...
CAM-3

$90 for a passive mixer. No power, no gain. Nothing but a box with some pots and jacks. What an outlandish ripoff! You could have done much better with a mixer from Radio Shack. (Unfortunately they're now in Chapter 11 proceedings.)

In fact, since that Azden is a purely resistive mixer, it will have some amount of signal loss which means the output levels will be lower than what is coming from the mics; therefore you will have more trouble with noise from the camera's mic preamps.

Mr. Crowley is right, someone could add a few resistors, a few capacitors, and a battery, and that mixer could provide "plug-in power" to your cheapie mics.

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

I have three digital memo recorders, and I put one in each subject's pocket, attaching the same computer-mics described above, to those recorders, and that worked well for getting sound a lot closer to the subject. (In fact, the quality was not as good as I had hoped, even in "HQ mode")

What make / model are those voice memo recorders? Many of the Sonys range from acceptable to good, some of the newer Olympus recorders are fairly good, but most of the older Olympus recorders were absolutely horrid. (There are also a myriad of no-name import recorders sold on eBay. Occasionally I have gotten curious and ordered one for evaluation, thinking they might be acceptable for student use. Every one I've tried uses 4-bit ADPCM encoding, which is incapable of providing acceptable sound quality. I have never found one that encodes pure PCM, or MP3, or WMA.)

--

To summarize and elaborate on mics... Every condenser mic has some internal electronics, so it needs DC power from some source. There are three basic powering schemes:

1.) Internal battery inside the mic. (You might find this on a professional mic with an XLR connector, or on a consumer mic with a 3.5mm connector.)

2.) Balanced "Phantom power." Usually 48 volts DC, sometimes can be as low as 12 volts. The DC power comes from the recorder or mixer. Used in upscale mics, which almost always have an XLR connector. (This is what the choir mics use.)

3.) Unbalanced "Plug-in power" or "in-line power." Between 1.5 and 9 volts DC. The DC power comes from the recorder or mixer. Used in consumer and computer mics, which almost always have a 3.5mm "mini" connector. (This is what your $2.00 computer mics use.)

NOTE that the latter two are NOT interchangeable. Worst case, you could irreparably damage the mics!

Since neither your camera nor your mixer provides any DC power, you need a mic with option (1.), namely a mic with its own internal battery. And yes, the Audio-Technica ATR-3350 (which Mr. Crowley recommended) would be a good choice for you.

And to echo Mr. Crowley further, the only other option is a mixer that does provide DC "plug-in power," in which case your present $2.00 computer mics would work -- although they surely can't sound very good at that price. Adequate for Skype calls, perhaps, but hardly ideal for video production.

[Erik Magnusson]

You gentlemen are the finest. You have certainly removed all doubt about the Peavey.

I appear to have no plug-in power. Someone suggested today that I should check, to see if the option is something that can be selected on the screen. I will try that.

Yes, I was beginning to suspect that the Azden was a financial rip-off, but, in my ignorance, I was at the mercy of other experienced users online, at the time, like the one who suggested it as the solution to my multi-mic set-up. What bad news, to hear that it would not only fail to solve the problem, but decrease the quality, to a point!

I see that some folks teach online how to make a battery box, to power any passive mic, but as it requires soldering and so forth, it will be a bit of work for me--although I want to learn how to do that anyway. Down here, I don't have much choice.

Thanks, Richard, for the observation about the shotgun mic. I was just "going with the flow" and doing what other folks seemed to be doing online. I even bought a special mount to hold it over my camera, as the camera itself has no shoe connector. (I knew I would overlook several features when I bought my camera, but I thought it would be good to start simple, and upgrade as I acquired more knowledge. I had only two weeks to do my research and buy, while I was at home.)

Coincidentally, I had bought two "boostaroo" inline headphone amplifiers last year, to use for listening on noisy busses here (the drivers turn up the volume on their own outlandish music, and expect everyone on board to enjoy it). I tried to use it in reverse, the other day, but it did not work, to amplify the signal this way. It would probably amplify the Polsen, however.
http://www.amazon.com/Upbeat-Audio-T...ords=boostaroo

Next take, I will find a make-shift boom pole for my Polsen, and get someone to hold it overhead--until I find some self-powered clip-ons. Folks online are recommending homemade mics used to record through a cell phone. I would not have thought that it could produce the kind of quality I needed, but, these days, perhaps it does.

My three digital-memo recorders are RCA. vr5320r and vr5340-A. I cannot recommend them, but they were all I could afford at the time.

What was WORSE was the Sony IC Voice Recorder. I had one with a USB connection, and one without (try transfering that recording sometime) and while they both sounded better than the RCA in HQ mode, they seem to have a built-in obsolesence that renders them utterly useless within about five or six years. One of them cost me over $150, and the other, less. One day I woke up and found the LCD screen completely blank on one of them--unable to display anything--and a few months later, the same thing happened on the other. (I had bought them months apart) Even with very gentle care and fresh batteries, without every dropping them, they were apparently programmed to go caput after a certain period. Amazon.com: Sony ICD-PX820 Digital Voice Recorder (Black): Electronics

Which brings up a good point: no matter how good a camera may be, and how many functions is may have, I sense that a recent trend among most manufacturers is to emphasize built-in obsolesence, more than ever before. It may work wonders for five years, and then--surprise! After all, if the secret is in the circuits, no consumer will ever discover the time bomb clicking away inside. Warranty expired, new model released, the manufacturer could not care less. In fact, the average manufactuer these days does not even support his product, but just sends you to an "online forum," as if to say, "We don't care about you, but maybe some of our other customers will be happy to help."

Anyway, it's nice to have people like you. The information was exactly what I needed. Thanks for the tips, the links, and all the suggestions. I will look for self-powered condenser mics for this filming application.

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

I had bought two "boostaroo" inline headphone amplifiers last year, to use for listening on noisy busses here ~~~ I tried to use it in reverse, the other day, but it did not work, to amplify the signal this way. It would probably amplify the Polsen, however.

Maybe, but it wouldn't work well. It is designed for a significantly different impedance, and for significantly different signal levels. It might provide some gain, but it would very likely introduce a lot of noise into the audio.

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

My three digital-memo recorders are RCA. vr5320r and vr5340-A.

I never even tried any consumer products made by RCA, based on their bad audio technology going back 50 years. Indeed, when I ran an audio repair shop back in the '70s, we refused to even look at any RCA or GE consumer product, because they were so poorly made and because repairing one would cost more than the unit was worth. I haven't seen any indication that they're shooting for a higher quality level today. (Note that back in the early 20th century, RCA made some exceptionally good broadcast microphones, but that was an entirely different division of the huge corporation that was RCA.)

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

What was WORSE was the Sony IC Voice Recorder. I had one with a USB connection, and one without (try transfering that recording sometime) and while they both sounded better than the RCA in HQ mode, they seem to have a built-in obsolesence that renders them utterly useless within about five or six years. ~~~ One day I woke up and found the LCD screen completely blank on one of them--unable to display anything--and a few months later, the same thing happened on the other.

Out of curiosity, how did you determine that the screen was defective? Maybe the entire unit just wasn't turning on. That might be caused by something simple like corroded or bent battery compartment contacts, etc. Or, if you removed the batteries while recording, or unplugged the USB cable while transferring files, you might have permanently "bricked" the unit.

Parenthetically, that model has audio that is at least acceptable for consumer use, better than a lot of other recorders of the same vintage. The ICD-SX line is much better.

Probably the weak point of any of the "voice memo recorders" is the internal microphone. But a lot of other desirable features are missing, such as a recording level indicator, which is really needed to be sure you are not recording too low (which adds noise to the audio) or too high (which adds clipping distortion). But the Sony ICD-SX recorders do have level metering.

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

they were apparently programmed to go caput after a certain period.

Starting to sound a little paranoid there, Erik! I strongly doubt that that's the case, and I doubt that you could find any real evidence to support your paranoia.

Originally Posted by Erik Magnusson

Which brings up a good point: no matter how good a camera may be, and how many functions is may have, I sense that a recent trend among most manufacturers is to emphasize built-in obsolesence,

More unrealism. Electronic technology is growing at an amazing rate, and it's possible to do things now, easily and inexpensively, that were impossible a few years ago. If someone builds the best possible recorder (or camera) today, it will not be as good as the best possible camera in 2020.

And with all due respect, if you're just now playing with $2.00 mics and learning the very lowest basic level of technology, I don't think you're in a position to evaluate "planned obsolescence" or any other conspiracy theory. So let's stick to your original question, and we will do our best to get you on the right track. As Sgt. Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts, sir ..."

[Erik Magnusson]

.
Thank you for your taking the time to reply, once again, and for the background info on RCA. I will use that helpful observation to think twice about buying certain RCA products, new or used.

As for my Sony recorders, I agree, the sound quality was noticeably better in HQ mode, than the RCAs. As for the durability, I lost a $250 in them, just a few months after the warranties expired.

I had always removed the batteries when not using them for more than a few weeks or so. Nobody had ever borrowed them or dropped them, either. I had never left them in the sun, but in the cool shade of my desk drawer.

Still, the grayish material at the back of the screen, in fact, started "peeling" away from the glass window. All other vital signs simultaneously disappeared. This happened first on the one, and months later on the other. Coincidentally I had bought each one at a different store, months apart, so they were not from the same lot. In fact, they were not the same exact model, as one had a USB connection and the other did not.

Anyway, thanks to the both of you, I got the answer to my question. I will buy some self-powered condenser mics somewhere, when I can.

[Jeff Pulera]

Erik,

I have a couple of these and they work great - Hands-Free Tie-Clip Omnidirectional Electret - Radioshack

As someone else mentioned, Radio Shack is currently closing many stores, not sure what will happen with website.

You may also want an 1/8" mono extension cable, male to female, in order to reach talent farther from camera. 6 foot cable here - 6-Ft. Mono 3.5mm Plug to Mono 3.5mm Jack with Shielded Cable - Radioshack

Longer versions should also be available, Radio Shack or elsewhere

Thanks

Jeff

[Erik Magnusson]

Jefff,

It looks like what I was using, but with an inline battery box attached. I wish I knew how to rig one up where I am, because I cannot get that model down here.

Thanks so much for the link. I may order a few to have waiting for me back home when I make my next trip.

[Richard Crowley]

Radio Shack is going out of business.
Many of the storefronts have been sold to some cell phone company, and there may be a few Radio-Shack-like items in those cell phone shops, but effectively you can say good bye to Radio Shack as we know it.

[Greg Miller]

Richard,

Yes, Radio Shack has filed for Chapter 11 Bankruptcy proceedings. Two of the local stores here have closed as of today. Yet the store near my mother's house is going strong with no "closing" signs and nothing on sale at reduced price. With luck, someone might find a few good bargains.

Erik,

I'm sorry (and surprised) to hear about your Sony recorders. That sounds like a very strange failure mode, certainly nothing I've ever seen on any portable device (I have calculators going back to the '60s and digital recorders that are nearly 20 years old -- none with any display problems). I suppose it's possible that some vendor produced a bad batch of screens that found their way into several products. There was a slightly similar situation several years ago with power filtering capacitors, which affected numerous motherboards in eMachines, HP, Dell, and a few other computers. All the motherboards came from the same vendor, who had used capacitors from one source, and it turned out the chemistry in the electrolyte was not the correct formulation. Having heard your description, I don't doubt that the displays failed, but I still don't think it was intentional sabotage by Sony.

I do think you would be a lot happier with better mics, which are coincidentally self-powered.

Meanwhile, if you can find a schematic for your mixer, in some electronic form, I can pencil in the changes needed, scan it, and send it back to you. But can you get resistors and capacitors where you are located? Do you know how to solder?

[Erik Magnusson]

Thank you, Greg. Very kind of you to offer.

I didn't understand why you were asking for the schematic for my Azden passive mixer. I may be getting my threads confused here, but I had in mind making my own inline battery box, to boost whatever mics I got my hands on, and avoid paying $30 online (my issue is the shipping to Venezuela; it would probably cost $30 or more via privat courier, and would get stolen if sent through the Venezuelan postal service.

I caught some glimpses of folks online who offer to teach us how to make a battery box using pieces of 3.5mm cables. I haven't done any soldering or welding in 25 years, and did not do much in those days anyway, but I am anxious to learn both, as down here it is a near necessity. The repairmen tend to keep their customer's equipment indefinitely, and sometimes end up selling it off. Meanwhile anything new tends to be harder to find than in the U.S., and these days, imported items are a little harder to find than before. We can't even get toilet paper here, without waiting in line for an hour when the weekly truck unloads, across town.

Yes, apparently we can get soldering irons, resistors, capacitors, and so forth, although I have never bought that kind of thing before. My neighbor does a lot of soldering, and I have been meaning to get him to show me for three years already.

I have to go out of town here, locally, for about one week, so please excuse any delays in responding after this Sunday.

Thanks so much.

[Greg Miller]

Erik,

A battery box won't actually "boost" [the level of] your mics. It will simply provide the DC power that's needed to run the electronics inside each microphone.

Yes, you could build an external battery box. But for each mic you would need a female jack (into which you would plug the mic) and a male plug (to go into the mixer), in addition to some capacitors, resistors, battery holder, and a case for the whole thing.

It seems to me that it would be simpler to add the resistors, capacitors, and battery holder, inside your present mixer. Of course we need to have a schematic of the mixer, and we'd want to be sure there is enough physical space in the mixer for the new components.

OTOH the disadvantage of modifying the mixer is that you would then always need to use the mixer with those mics. If you built a separate battery box, you could plug one mic into the battery box, plug the battery box into the camera, and you would not need the mixer.

Ponder the pros and cons. (Or make things simple and buy some of the self-powered mics that Mr. Crowley recommends; then you won't need a battery box and you won't need to modify anything.)

[Erik Magnusson]

I stand corrected. It does not boost, but provides power for the intended function to occur. Got it. Thanks.

Now I understand why you wanted the schematic. Very generous of you to offer help in that area.

Do you mean to say that self-powered condenser mics should not be used with a powered mixer, but rather only passive mics?

To be frank, my original goal was to get this first video recorded and edited, to take with me on my business trip this Monday, but there were more roadblocks than I had expected. Buying the mics I found downtown would have been a fast solution, if they had been the right type.

(I also had some surprises with my video resolution, and with filming in general: on two occasions someone forgot to press "record" on the camera!! Good thing I had one or two back-up cameras running each time, positioned for the sake of having different angles.)

So, I did not reach my goal, as the video is far from ready. Now I will have more time to think about what to do, when I come back in eight days, to continue filming.

I think the things are a bit too tight right now for me to get involved with the soldering, come to think of it. I will need a faster work around, for the time being, such as creating a makeshift boom pole for the shotgun mic that I already have.

But if I see a chance to work on it, I will write back to you--although I feel bad about having to turn down such a generous offer.

Thanks again for all the help. I won't have any Internet for about one week, I think, so you may want to hold off anymore posting for now.

Thanks again!

[Greg Miller]

Erik,

This will be my last post until we hear from you upon your return.

Many hand-held recorders have a switch (usually within a menu) that allows you to turn the "in-line power" either on or off, depending on what mics you are using.

In my finite experience, when using a self-powered mic, with the recorder's "in-line power" also turned on, there was no damage. But of course you might find a mic that IS damaged in this case. (NOTE: this does NOT apply to 48 volt "phantom power" which can do a LOT of damage in the wrong scenario. None of your equipment has that type of power.)

However, if the mixer or recorder has "in-line power" turned on, and you are using a dynamic mic, there is the possibility of damaging the mic.

By far the simplest and safest solution for you, since your camera and mixer both do NOT provide any power, is just to use self-powered mics. That will save you a few hours of soldering, and the possibility that you might damage your mixer in the process. It will avoid any confusion about when to turn the "in-line power" on or off.

Hope you have a good trip.

[Erik Magnusson]

Thank you, Greg.

Yes, someone else suggested that I check out the screen options, for the possibility of assigning plug-in power to the mic jack. I looked throughout the manual and on the screen options, and saw nothing of the sort. Good to know for my next camera purchase someday.

Thanks also for the explanation about powered mics on a powered jack.