What is the barrier to cheap, GOOD wireless mic systems?

[Don Palomaki]

...There ought be a law....

Too many of them already. We already have PC killing free speech, now you want laws too? Be careful, the next law might require you to read the reviews. (At last for now if I don't want to read a review, I can skip it.)

The last review serves a purpose for non-technical folks. While some might be interested in S/N, harmonic distortion, frequency response, image rejection, etc. to many buyers that is just technospeak gobble-de-gook. They see that it works videotaping in the outdoors (which is like in the park) and that works for them. It also provides separation from the sounds of the water fowl and fountain compared to the short shotgun.

Others can take away that yes, it does reach to 100' (or more) in a clean environment, and works in what looks like it might be in cold weather.

[Tom Gresham]

Why does better quality audio equipment cost more?

Because it's worth it.

You can not make good video with bad audio. Audio is just as important as the camera and the lens.

Bad audio is the bane of my existence, and we fight it on every shoot. Next week we'll be on location with five wireless setups.

Now, having said that, I'm still buying the $600 solutions rather than the $4,000 options. If I needed more range than about 100 feet, I'd buy Lektros.

Good transmitter, good receiver and and UPGRADED lav mic beyond what comes with the package. Basic unit. Plus a spare lav mic for when the wire or the jack gets damaged.

[Chris Harding]

I'm seriously considering jumping to the 2.4GHz systems as our UHF frequencies have changed so my current Azdens are now illegal. The Audio Technica system 10 looks pretty good and the fact you can add up to 8 body packs with one receiver is a bonus doing Church weddings where I need dual wireless mics. On the UHF systems I still tend to have interference issues with either Church wireless systems or the officiant's system and 2.4GHz might sort that out a bit better.

Here we have a tiny band allocated for wireless so interference or frequency clash is a distinct possibility with the huge reduction in available frequency range.

Anyone using the AT system???? The new one from Rode is not available yet

Chris

[Rick Reineke]

Many interference issues are due to pilot error, (i.e: gain staging, frequency selection, antenna placement)
I have no experience with the 2.4GHz systems and I certainly would not trust a low-budget system of any type or manufacturer and I'm skeptical of a 2.4GHz system's reliability with the billions of wireless devices in that frequency range
BTW, Azden gear in general is not highly regarded amongst audio pros.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Rick

Here is a test by an industry sound man and it looks pretty good to me and very clean audio too!!

System 10 camera mount wireless review and field tested by Fred Ginsburg CAS - YouTube

[Tim Paynter]

You can fix bad video with stills and in some cases, video grabs, motion graphics, etc, fixing bad audio is darn difficult and often impossible. Add a music track, try to cut down on background, boost vocals, increase "thickness". At the end of the day, while you can patch video, there is only so much to be done with Audio. I am with Tom on this, buy the highest level audio you can afford and even then, there are risks. What the test in the above video does not demonstrate is what happens when there is a ton of competition for signals nearby.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Tim

It does actually! He is testing on a sound stage with a lot of cabling with power and a lot of computers in the building too. At one point he actually goes right up to a laptop being used in the sound stage area. I really would wonder how a UHF system would fare in the same area? Last Saturday I was getting interference just from the officiant's wired mic (not even wireless) My signal changed significantly when she came close to the groom...There is often little time at wedding ceremonies to test various scenarios at the front end and just the close proximity of another mic can cause issues. The same kit at the reception again with a wired mic gave no issues at all. I wonder how a wired mic would affect a 2.4GB system???

Obviously doing things like interviews and such, you don't have the issue with 3rd party gear coming in close proximity to your audio gear

Chris

[Tim Paynter]

Some good points, Chris.

I view a good interference test as the same sound stage with tables full of students and their laptops running, texting on their cells, and more congestion. How about in a real crowd where there is a lot of background clutter, both voices and signals? Or outside with the wind alternately howling and then not, and people walking closer and then farther away from the babbling brook, and just when you get all of that figured out an airplane flies over. Good sound is more than signal, proper placement of the mike is important, too.

I didn't think about all the cabling, so that is a good point.

But otherwise, this looks like it was shot after class, as there seems to be almost no-one in the building and with almost no real world distractions. This guy makes it look easy because he is a pro. That includes knowing when and where to shoot the test.

But I hope you are right because the simpler I can make things the less I have to worry about. Less money spent on mics means money for other things...so long as the lower cost product really works. Perhaps this one will.

[Paul R Johnson]

He's obviously a sound man as he's paid no attention to the video quality whatsoever - and clearly a very wide lens, so the distance looks greater than it is. I'm not saying he cheated, but if the idea is to show a test, he really made a mess of that. For a Phd too! Very subjective and as I'm actually a 2.4GHz user myself, it makes a good system appear a bit 'dodgy' somehow. Not sure if the hat was for anonymity, but pretty stupid.

The facts of 2.4GHz wireless are fairly simple. They work. In the two years plus since I have had mine (6 in a rack) they have not had a single dropout, and that cannot be said for the Sennheiser G3 system I also have in the same venue. In fact, it's 40m from stage to the front of house mixer, and the performance over that distance is always trouble free. It's good portable systems are now available.

The only negative point I have is that my system has two modes - one that uses more of the common wifi channels, and one that uses less. The upshot is that I use the original full mode - the more RF friendly mode is NOT so reliable. Still good, but not as good as full mode, which is 100% solid. This mode is not friendly to other wifi users. Sound designers now wander around with their iPad, setting levels and eq, and the lighting people will be using wifi for focussing. Other people will be trying to read emails and browse the net. It is very common to hear these people moaning about the wifi signal.

I'm very happy with my line 6 systems, and would happily buy more - I just bought some guitar systems and they're just as solid.

So good product, but that video is dreadful.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Paul

Thanks for that! Just for interest, can you drop the transmitter into the groom's pocket or does it have to be well exposed for decent audio. I know my current UHF system does get signal attenuation when it's inside the groom's pocket ... bear in mind however at weddings there are two major influences that would help any 2.4GHZ system ... firstly all cell/mobile phones are turned off ... the celebrant tells all guests to do that .. secondly I'm rarely more than 5 metres from the groom anyway so distances are short!!

Yeah the guy on the camera was very wide .. when he said he was at 100' outside it looked like he was on the other end of the campus! I don't think top video shots were the object of the exercise!

I saw a couple of guitar systems on a site than also boasted a 3.5mm mic input ... do you use yours purely with instruments .. I would have thought that guitar pickups would have a fairly low output but not really the same as a mic level of -50 or 60db

I do like to be able to monitor my audio and adjust levels so a recorder dropped into the groom's pocket for me is really scary ...is it running, did I press record ...if you make any of these mistakes you only know when you get home which is somewhat too late so I don't want to go down that route at all and hooking up a transmitter to a recorder so you can monitor still doesn't allow any level changes while the camera is running

What model Line 6 units are you using Paul??

Chris

[Don Palomaki]

PhD, but not stated what field or where granted. Maybe it is in education? The PhD means he knows a lot about a vary narrow field which may or may not have anything to do with technical evaluation of wireless mic performance. In any case by admission he is, at times, a paid "consultant" to AT and TASCAM. His agenda would likely be to show that it works, not to show that it doesn't work.

In general, a lack of reviews of a product is more troubling (to me at least) than poorly executed good reviews.

Counting joints in the sidewalk, the outdoor shot started to break-up at something over 210 feet.

It is clear that while it might not work everywhere, it can work well in many places. Potential buyers need to evaluate all reviews in light of their specific requirements.

One thing is clear, the FCC is not as likely to steal spectrum from consumer devices the way they took the 700 MHz UHF from wireless use.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Don

Yes it seems he is an educator now but seems to be quite experience in sound mixing which is a tad better than being some guy who bought a mic and did a You Tube review. He is quite well published.

FilmTVsound.com

I think any system has it's limitations in certain environments so we simply need to see what's best for our needs

Chris

[John Willett]

The problem with 2.4GHz is that it is using the same frequency band as Bluetooth and WiFi.

As soon as you get people with smart phones, iPads and the like taking pictures and uploading them you run the risk of interference with your 2.4GHz system - which is why professionals don't use it.

[Chris Harding]

Great topic but was the original question answered in the end??

What should a videographer really be looking at nowdays in the sub $1000 price range ... ?? I see quite a few people here talk around systems but no-one as yet has said " This is what you should be using .. best bang for buck and solid and reliable without any dropouts or issues.

Chris

[Don Palomaki]

The OP was looking for high quality in the sub US$600 price range, and wondering why that seemed to be the threshold for better products. From that point the discussion moved to options and reasons.

I would say the initial questions were answered, but perhaps not the answers the OP may have wanted to hear. The thread included additional information as well as it wound it way to where we are now.