External Mic Recommendation for Pany TM700 (Outdoor Use for Soccer)

[Alan Henderson]

Been searching a lot but have not found what I need.

I'll be shooting outdoor soccer and want a mic that will pic up the voices from the players but not from the people next to me.

I've found a lot of reviews of microphones but none that represent what I need to use it for.

I have a Panasonic TM700.

Does an affordable external mic exist that will meet my needs?

Thanks...Alan

[Brian P. Reynolds]

Nice dream..... I've been working in audio 30+ years and still dreaming of a mic like that too.
When you understand the physics of sound you will understand why it will never happen.

[Roberto Diaz]

what does the NFL use?

i would think it's some sort of parabolic plexiglass thingie that concentrates the sound at the mic which would be placed at the right spot. kinda like this...

Parabolic microphone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

haven't used one, but it seems to make sense. i could be wrong.

[Gary Nattrass]

You could try a sennheiser 816 T48 or even a rode NTG8 but as other have said the laws of physics are against you here.

You will also need someone to hold or boom it to follow the action as just mounting it on the camera will be impractical.

A parabolic reflector may also be useable but the distance involved is against you whatever mic you choose.

I do audio for the premiership soccer and UEFA in the UK and we use sennheiser 416 and 816 mics around the pitch but it is mainly for ball effects and not picking up what people are saying, if there is any crowd involved you will also have no chance as all you will get is this with a single mic on or near the camera:

ManU-v-RealMadrid - YouTube

[Brian P. Reynolds]

Parabolics will give you a bit extra reach than an 816 / MKH 70 or NTG8...... But the parabolic by the way it works has very little or no bottom end sound.
But no matter what mic you use anyone close to the mic, even on the side will be so much louder than the sound you are trying to pick up.

[Jim Cowan]

Hi Alan,

Originally Posted by Alan Henderson

I'll be shooting outdoor soccer and want a mic that will pic up the voices from the players but not from the people next to me.

I've found a lot of reviews of microphones but none that represent what I need to use it for.

I have a Panasonic TM700.

Does an affordable external mic exist that will meet my needs?

Nothing will be perfect, but given that you're using a TM700 I doubt you'll want to spend
$500+, nor want XLR inputs. Take a look at the B&H "Back to school" sale, under Video
there is an "Audio for Video" selection.

There was an Azden that might work well for you, battery powered
by AAA, 1/8 plug should match the TM700 (double check, I have a TM900). You'll also need
at least a deadcat (outdoors). You can always duck the sound in post but the supercardiod
shotgun might give you enough side rejection that it won't mater. Also consider shooting from
a different location away from the louder parents. Good luck.

thanks
jim

[Alan Henderson]

Originally Posted by Brian P. Reynolds

Nice dream..... I've been working in audio 30+ years and still dreaming of a mic like that too.
When you understand the physics of sound you will understand why it will never happen.

I guess I'm asking what might be better than the built in internal microphone.

It does a wonderful job of picking up voice chatter on the field, as well as everything else around it, including loud parents as one poster noted.

I thought the purpose of a shotgun mic was to tune out everything except what it is pointed at.

FYI - I admit I am clueless about audio. Have read lots of articles but none focus on using a mic outdoors.

Alan

[Brian P. Reynolds]

Ok..... any shotgun mic will be better than the inbuilt camera mic, the longer the shotgun mic is the more directional the mic will be.... BUT even with the most directional mic sound made very close to that mic will be heard... Maybe not as loud as the original camera mic but sound around you will be recorded.
People often think shotgun mics are like camera lenses / zoom lenses but unfortunately not so.
So it will come down to what size mic you can tolerate with your camera, the longer the better but also be aware that shotgun need to be very well protected from the wind.
I do a lot of sporting TV outside broadcasts and sennheiser MKH 816 and MKH 70 in blimps are used as standard long shotgun mics but would be about 600+mm long and about 100mm dia., could your camera cope with that?

Here is a version from Rode...
http://www.rodemic.com/mics/ntg8

Be mindful that the camera you are using does NOT have phantom powering which is required for most shotgun microphones.

[Rick Reineke]

"what does the NFL use? "
Wireless on 'some' of the players and parabolic dishes for picking up other on-field sounds. Usually the tiny Lectro SM series transmitters are used and custom fit into the players shoulder pad according to the NFL.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Alan Henderson

I guess I'm asking what might be better than the built in internal microphone.

It does a wonderful job of picking up voice chatter on the field, as well as everything else around it, including loud parents as one poster noted.

I thought the purpose of a shotgun mic was to tune out everything except what it is pointed at.

FYI - I admit I am clueless about audio. Have read lots of articles but none focus on using a mic outdoors.

Alan

The off-axis rejection of a shotgun is a matter of degree. It's not a tightly focused beam like laser picking up in one direction and deaf to everything else. Rather it's more sensitive in one direction than it is in others but it still picks up everything around it to some degree.

[Jon Fairhurst]

As the sounds move more and more off-axis, the sound level doesn't just drop evenly. The high frequency sounds drop at a fast rate. The low frequency sounds don't drop off much, if at all. That's why with amateur video, you will often hear the subject speak clearly at a moderate volume (on-axis at a moderate distance), while the person behind the camera is boomy and overly loud (well off-axis and very close.)

There are two mics that I'm aware of that have a more balanced fall-off: The Sanken CS-3e and the Schoeps SuperCMIT digital shotgun. Rather than one element and a simple interference tube, the Sanken uses 3 elements and the Schoeps uses two plus digital signal processing. I've played with the Sanken at NAB and it isolated the subject reasonably well while the backround sounds were still present but sounded natural. With a standard long shotgun, the loud ambient sounds and reverberance turn into an annoying rumble.

Outdoors, this isn't such a problem. If you can elevate a standard long shotgun mic on a stand in a good shockmount with wind protection, you'll get a good result. By putting it on a high stand, you will minimize problems if the guy next to you has a coughing fit.

Applications like this bring another thing to mind: do you need a top quality mic for the application? In my opinion, voice is the most demanding application as we know what is and isn't natural for voice. Music is the next most critical application. Sometimes you can use a "colorful" mic to make isolated instruments sound more interesting than a neutral mic, but there are limits and the color can make things worse as easily as better.

But if the application is for kicks, grunts, footsteps, and cheers recorded at a long distance, you might not need the highest possible fidelity. You want to avoid problems (wind, handling noise, coughing man, hiss) but few would be able to tell the difference if there is a small wiggle in the EQ curve.

BTW, that last point, hiss, is critical. Make sure to use a mic with good sensitivity, a low noise floor, and good S/N, as well as a clean preamp. You'll need a lot of gain to record at a distance and nobody wants to hear "sssss".

[Bill Bruner]

The best you're going to do for a reasonable price is probably a $229 Rode Videomic Pro - it will be better than your in-camera mic, but will not isolate voices on the soccer field.

Here is its advantage over an in-camera mic (please skip to 3:14 to 3:32 in the video for the comparison):

Rode VideoMic Pro - YouTube

Hope this is helpful!

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution

[Al Bergstein]

I agree with Gary. I also have the TM900, and can agree that I usually use the Rode Videomic Pro but it will give you only slightly better than the camera mic for that use. It's good for relatively close up dialogue. If you decide to look at that kind at that price range, you might seriously consider the new Shure.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/966007-REG/shure_vp83_condenser_shotgun_microphone.html
It's all about where you will stand. If you are in the stands, just forget it. If you are on the sidelines, you then stand a chance. If so, here's some ideas.

If I *had* to shoot a soccer game and try and good sound, with that camera, I might try finding a mounting bracket that would allow me to attach my Audio Technica 897, and use an external box like the Juicelink to hook it up to it. It gives me better "reach" than the little Rode, VMP I have, and is more 'directional'.

Look at getting a bracket for a flash like mount, one that moves the mic away from the camera, then mount this onto it, and the longer shotgun onto that.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/326967-REG/K_Tek_K_CAM_SM_Camera_Shoemounting_Shockmount.html
But you have now spent about $50 for the bracket, $75 for the mic mount, and $200 or more for the mic. You have almost bought your camera. But you can use this gear with any other camera you eventually get. This gear is not a parabolic mount, but gets you marginally better sound than your camera does.

[Alan Henderson]

Thank you all for your feedback and suggestions.

Alan

[Bruce Watson]

Originally Posted by Alan Henderson

I thought the purpose of a shotgun mic was to tune out everything except what it is pointed at.

And... you thought wrong. A shotgun mic is not the audio equivalent of a zoom lens. It's amazing to me how many people think that. But sound isn't light. Not even close.