Best way to record dance recital audio

Anthony Botta · March 29th, 2013, 10:03 AM

Yes a direct feed from the mixer would be best and I am going to look into doing that. I did use headphones on my camera last year to constantly monitor the sound coming in and adjust as necessary. And the sound did come out very well. The music was clear, there wasn't much audience noise, the tap dancing was heard, and the stereo sound was much fuller than the cheap on camera mono mics they have been using for years.

I'm don't want the only audio to be a feed from the mixer because they like to hear the audience participation (cheering, clapping along during some songs, etc.) so I will need that audio as well.

If I use a Zoom H4n at the front of the stage to record either speaker sound (closer) or a direct feed from the mixer, I won't be able to monitor tha so I'll have to set it up ahead of time and hope it records ok.

I could potentially use one camera channel for a mic and one for the mixer but I loose the stereo recording then.

Regarding the copyright material, I am not very familiar with copyright laws but I suppose what I'm doing may not be legal. They have been doing this for years and years and have not had any problems yet (I'll probably be the first). The DVD's (or in the old days, VHS tapes) of the shows are given to the parents to just have record of their kid's recitals/show the family. They are not sold or distributed widespread.

Does copyright infringement also apply to people who video weddings, since copyright material is played throughout the night?

Thank you.

Richard Crowley · March 29th, 2013, 10:14 AM

The copyright laws apply in ALL cases. It is NOT legal for you to distribute (even for free) copies of anything which has copyright ownership by someone else with out permission/license/release from them.

There are a few narrow exceptions for legitimate criticism, parody, and some educational uses, but canned music at a dance recital doesn't come close to qualifying for any of those exceptions. If you really wanted to get serious, it seems unlikely that they even have the proper license to play (or "perform" in legal terms) the recorded music for an audience.

Anthony Botta · March 29th, 2013, 10:30 AM

You are probably right. Although I'm pretty sure that there are many many instances like this.
Not saying it makes it right or ok, just saying.

Paul R Johnson · March 29th, 2013, 11:04 AM

The thing people forget is that there is often a VERY simple solution to all of this.
Record the room sound, with applause, clapping and stage sound - as in taps, bangs etc
At the end of the show, arrange to borrow the CDs/CD/memory stick/MD they used to play the music. Take them with you, make a copy, give the material back and then add the music in the edit, using the room sound track to sync it!

If there are lots of MC/compere bits, you only have room sound, but the crowd are usually quieter for this bit.

If you can't get a mixer feed, this can save the day for you.

Shaun Roemich · March 29th, 2013, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Crowley

If you really wanted to get serious, it seems unlikely that they even have the proper license to play (or "perform" in legal terms) the recorded music for an audience.

And to further clarify, even if they (or the venue - in Canada we have SOCAN which administers those rights for venues), those rights wouldn't extend to you.

Check out the Taking Care of Business sub-forum for more information - this topic comes up A LOT.

I got into recitals for the same reasons you state - creating a document for parents so they didn't all crowd to the front of the stage to record the dance. Again, what I was doing wasn't strictly legal but this was back in the days of VHS distribution and EVERY parent bought a tape from the dance studio so we weren't concerned with external viewing.

Then some parents wanted to start seeing stuff as web video (back before YouTube)... I saw the writing on the wall and said "nah... not worth it..."

I could argue to MYSELF that when I was providing tapes ONLY to parents that I was doing what they would have but the second it grew past that, I was uncomfortable.

Again, not legal but I could justify it in my head. Again, that was over ten years ago. Haven't done one since.

Anthony Botta · March 29th, 2013, 11:31 AM

Yes, getting a copy of all the songs is a good idea as well and I will see if I can do that.

Yea I hear you about the copyright stuff. Well I only do this once a year and just started recently to help out a friend. So hopefully we won't all be getting in trouble for it.

Don Bloom · March 29th, 2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony Botta

Yes, getting a copy of all the songs is a good idea as well and I will see if I can do that.

Yea I hear you about the copyright stuff. Well I only do this once a year and just started recently to help out a friend. So hopefully we won't all be getting in trouble for it.

Ask Joe Simon a very well known wedding videographer about getting in trouble using music that has a copyright and a video clip appearing on the internet. Specifically ask him how much it cost him to settle!
Just Sayin'.

Anthony Botta · March 29th, 2013, 12:05 PM

I'm know I'm getting off topic here, but does that mean that every wedding videographer is breaking the law?

Shaun Roemich · March 29th, 2013, 12:07 PM

Depends on the jurisdiction but typically in North America, yes.

Don Bloom · March 29th, 2013, 01:29 PM

In the USA if you're using copyright music and haven't paid to secure the license to use the music in the video, then yes you are breaking the law. there is no fair use, or gee, I didn't know, or anything else like that. you are a law breaker and could spend 30 years in solitary confinement until you tunnel you way out....Oh wait, that's for politicians.
You can be fined many, many dollars.

Anthony Botta · March 29th, 2013, 02:39 PM

Ok I'll ask one more question then I'll drop the copyright issue as I've hijacked my own thread.

So even the wedding videographer is at fault just for videotaping a wedding which happens to be playing music in the background? I'm not talking about him using the music to insert in the video over a slideshow or something.

Don Bloom · March 29th, 2013, 03:40 PM

Technically yes BUT, I doubt that anyone would go after anyone for that even though they could. While many people have lost touch with reality and lost whatever common sense they might have had I think this is one issue that a judge would probably throw out of court. I only say that because the judge might have gone to an event him/her self, pulled out the old smart phone and recorded the niece or nephew singing or whatever with a popular song playing in the background. Maybe even posted it to U tube. I just don't see (name the popular artist here) going after the judge BUT they could!
It's a fine line and a slippery slope.

Jim Stamos · May 5th, 2015, 08:05 PM

I'm shooting one of my bigger recitals this weekend, 830-630 on saturday. I always get a feed from the board via XLR or if the board isn't near me,I go with my lector sonics wireless mic plug.i go out of the board into a direct box. Audio is pristine. Worst case if u aren't able to,get the cds they play and sync them in editing.
Using the camera mic would absolutely be the last option. No reason you couldn't get the cds. But getting a feed from the board shouldn't be a problem.

Paul R Johnson · May 6th, 2015, 12:17 AM

Getting a feed can often be tricky unless you contact them early on and ask. The sound op can usually give you a feed, but they do to appreciate doing this half an hour before show time, and if running cables is part of the deal they need more time. They also hate the camera people who pass them a zoom, ask if it can be wired in and then just press record! They may, or may not remember to do it. As show time approaches all sorts of things might suddenly happen and pressing record will be forgotten about if things go wrong. Giving you a mix can also be tricky when the tracks they are using are poor, and levels wildly different, so track three is mega loud, so they turn down the fader, will your feed stay pegged in the red? Should it have been a post fade send? If the CDs are available, just borrow me and have the best audio you have available.

The best video guys we get turn up early, have their own cables and DI boxes, and the worst turn up while the audience are arriving, have no cables and demand a feed, which sadly doesn't get done last minute if gaffer tape is required!

March 29th, 2013, 10:03 AM	#16
Anthony Botta New Boot Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NY Posts: 22	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio Yes a direct feed from the mixer would be best and I am going to look into doing that. I did use headphones on my camera last year to constantly monitor the sound coming in and adjust as necessary. And the sound did come out very well. The music was clear, there wasn't much audience noise, the tap dancing was heard, and the stereo sound was much fuller than the cheap on camera mono mics they have been using for years. I'm don't want the only audio to be a feed from the mixer because they like to hear the audience participation (cheering, clapping along during some songs, etc.) so I will need that audio as well. If I use a Zoom H4n at the front of the stage to record either speaker sound (closer) or a direct feed from the mixer, I won't be able to monitor tha so I'll have to set it up ahead of time and hope it records ok. I could potentially use one camera channel for a mic and one for the mixer but I loose the stereo recording then. Regarding the copyright material, I am not very familiar with copyright laws but I suppose what I'm doing may not be legal. They have been doing this for years and years and have not had any problems yet (I'll probably be the first). The DVD's (or in the old days, VHS tapes) of the shows are given to the parents to just have record of their kid's recitals/show the family. They are not sold or distributed widespread. Does copyright infringement also apply to people who video weddings, since copyright material is played throughout the night? Thank you.

March 29th, 2013, 10:14 AM	#17
Richard Crowley Trustee Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 1,238	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio The copyright laws apply in ALL cases. It is NOT legal for you to distribute (even for free) copies of anything which has copyright ownership by someone else with out permission/license/release from them. There are a few narrow exceptions for legitimate criticism, parody, and some educational uses, but canned music at a dance recital doesn't come close to qualifying for any of those exceptions. If you really wanted to get serious, it seems unlikely that they even have the proper license to play (or "perform" in legal terms) the recorded music for an audience.

March 29th, 2013, 10:30 AM	#18
Anthony Botta New Boot Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NY Posts: 22	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio You are probably right. Although I'm pretty sure that there are many many instances like this. Not saying it makes it right or ok, just saying.

March 29th, 2013, 11:04 AM	#19
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio The thing people forget is that there is often a VERY simple solution to all of this. Record the room sound, with applause, clapping and stage sound - as in taps, bangs etc At the end of the show, arrange to borrow the CDs/CD/memory stick/MD they used to play the music. Take them with you, make a copy, give the material back and then add the music in the edit, using the room sound track to sync it! If there are lots of MC/compere bits, you only have room sound, but the crowd are usually quieter for this bit. If you can't get a mixer feed, this can save the day for you.

March 29th, 2013, 11:31 AM	#21
Anthony Botta New Boot Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NY Posts: 22	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio Yes, getting a copy of all the songs is a good idea as well and I will see if I can do that. Yea I hear you about the copyright stuff. Well I only do this once a year and just started recently to help out a friend. So hopefully we won't all be getting in trouble for it.

March 29th, 2013, 12:05 PM	#23
Anthony Botta New Boot Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NY Posts: 22	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio I'm know I'm getting off topic here, but does that mean that every wedding videographer is breaking the law?

March 29th, 2013, 12:07 PM	#24
Shaun Roemich Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada Posts: 4,088	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio Depends on the jurisdiction but typically in North America, yes. __________________ Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/

March 29th, 2013, 01:29 PM	#25
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio In the USA if you're using copyright music and haven't paid to secure the license to use the music in the video, then yes you are breaking the law. there is no fair use, or gee, I didn't know, or anything else like that. you are a law breaker and could spend 30 years in solitary confinement until you tunnel you way out....Oh wait, that's for politicians. You can be fined many, many dollars. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

March 29th, 2013, 02:39 PM	#26
Anthony Botta New Boot Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: NY Posts: 22	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio Ok I'll ask one more question then I'll drop the copyright issue as I've hijacked my own thread. So even the wedding videographer is at fault just for videotaping a wedding which happens to be playing music in the background? I'm not talking about him using the music to insert in the video over a slideshow or something.

March 29th, 2013, 03:40 PM	#27
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio Technically yes BUT, I doubt that anyone would go after anyone for that even though they could. While many people have lost touch with reality and lost whatever common sense they might have had I think this is one issue that a judge would probably throw out of court. I only say that because the judge might have gone to an event him/her self, pulled out the old smart phone and recorded the niece or nephew singing or whatever with a popular song playing in the background. Maybe even posted it to U tube. I just don't see (name the popular artist here) going after the judge BUT they could! It's a fine line and a slippery slope. __________________ What do I know? I'm just a video-O-grafer. Don

May 5th, 2015, 08:05 PM	#28
Jim Stamos Major Player Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 565	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio I'm shooting one of my bigger recitals this weekend, 830-630 on saturday. I always get a feed from the board via XLR or if the board isn't near me,I go with my lector sonics wireless mic plug.i go out of the board into a direct box. Audio is pristine. Worst case if u aren't able to,get the cds they play and sync them in editing. Using the camera mic would absolutely be the last option. No reason you couldn't get the cds. But getting a feed from the board shouldn't be a problem.

May 6th, 2015, 12:17 AM	#29
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Best way to record dance recital audio Getting a feed can often be tricky unless you contact them early on and ask. The sound op can usually give you a feed, but they do to appreciate doing this half an hour before show time, and if running cables is part of the deal they need more time. They also hate the camera people who pass them a zoom, ask if it can be wired in and then just press record! They may, or may not remember to do it. As show time approaches all sorts of things might suddenly happen and pressing record will be forgotten about if things go wrong. Giving you a mix can also be tricky when the tracks they are using are poor, and levels wildly different, so track three is mega loud, so they turn down the fader, will your feed stay pegged in the red? Should it have been a post fade send? If the CDs are available, just borrow me and have the best audio you have available. The best video guys we get turn up early, have their own cables and DI boxes, and the worst turn up while the audience are arriving, have no cables and demand a feed, which sadly doesn't get done last minute if gaffer tape is required!