I think I've heard it all... at DVinfo.net

Douglas Spotted Eagle · September 19th, 2005, 10:45 AM

This is somewhat OT, but just can't help myself. It makes me wonder where some of this incredible logic (or lack thereof) comes from. As some of you know, I write for various magazines. Recently I did an article for Studio Monthly on how to mic in the field. It's a short, super fast reference guide. In there, I make comment on how on-camera mics should almost never be used, and if used, then at least a mic better than the built in cam mic should be used. I further commented that a $5.00 computer mic placed next to/near the subject will usually sound better than a 5,000.00 mic placed 20 feet away from the subject.
Studio Monthly received a comment following my article that went like this:
“I take exception with Studio's advice on micing. I've made four feature movies, the fourth of which just hit the airwaves. And I've used the built-in mic on the camera for all the shoots. Never ever had a problem with micing. So now, the article was full of "knee-jerk" textbook stuff on micing. It may be good for documentaries, where you show the lavalier or boom-it. ...”

Obviously I'm fairly confident in my work, but could it be that I'm not a realist, and rather an eliteist? Or are there really people out there making "professional" products that use built in mics? In honesty, my main reason for wondering is the management at the magazine doesn't know a mic from a mic stand, so they only can take the complaint as being possibly legit.

Can I get a reality check? Are there really people working this way and getting away with it?

Dennis Wood · September 19th, 2005, 10:58 AM

Are you sure the feedback didn't come from a guy shooting silent films?

Richard Alvarez · September 19th, 2005, 11:02 AM

DSE
"I've made four feature movies, the fouth of which just hit the airwaves..."

What does this mean? What are 'the airwaves' in this guy's world? Local cable access or HBO?

Graham Bernard · September 19th, 2005, 11:05 AM

Well, personally Douglas, I find tying a really taught string - I find the smooth quality ideal for this job - from an empty Corn can and knotting it to the on-board mic does it for me. Dirt cheap and has never let me down. Apart from anything else the Corn is really good for a snack. Position the open end towards the "talent" and hey presto! Voila! It's . . er .. in the can!

Huh . . I really don't know why I had bothered spending something in excess of £1k on Senni shotties, lapels and now a completely pointless reporter's mic. Can you? Teh! Yah just lives and learns . . eh . . yah just lives and learns . .

A reality check? If you are asking .. yah doesn't need it.

My on board-mic can pick up my flatulents . . ppphhhoooarrghh . . some 8 feet BEHIND the on-board mic. Preeeety sensitive I'd say. Yup! The Onboard mic . . For those er . . more "Sensitive Moments in Movie Making!"

Grazie!

Graeme Nattress · September 19th, 2005, 11:58 AM

Douglas, you're right - the nearer the mic to the sound it's recording the better. Most sound quality is lost between the sound producer and the sound sensor.

Nice article BTW, just read it the other day.

Graeme

A. J. deLange · September 19th, 2005, 01:15 PM

You may be an eliteist in the sense that I'll bet your hearing is one hell of a lot better than the average guy's. I'm guessing that if you put me into a triangle test situation with stock on camera mics and high dollar replacements therefore that I couldn't pick the high dollar mic. I'll bet you could.

Jack Smith · September 19th, 2005, 02:46 PM

I would like to know what mic the guy uses that can replace the time,knowledge and effort that would normally be put into making sure you nail the audio.Boy, how many people will that put out of work?
Douglas it surprises me that you would put ANY credance into that statement.We all strive to achieve a higher level and most of us are able to because of people like yourself that raise the bar thru not only technique and equipment but also mindset.
Just want to say thanks.

Pete Bauer · September 19th, 2005, 04:09 PM

DSE,
I cannot possibly top Grazie's post, so I'll actually be serious. Even for my first little short film for The DV Challenge last week, I used a lav and an AT897. On board mic for all those shots? No way.
Thanks for all you do here, buddy. Hope we can meet one of these days.

Matt Gettemeier · September 19th, 2005, 04:17 PM

It would be really funny if you saw one of that guy's films and it was all ECU of different forheads and adam's apples.

Then you'd think, "hmm... I guess that guy was right."

If there's one thing I've found it's that morons are like water... the very second you stop bailing in your boat of reasoning they'll overtake it and that ship sinks. That's how I see some of the forums too... it's like you have to keep that pail (metaphor for CORRECT information) going as the morons* keep pouring in wrong information like so much water.

*If you are in fact a moron... my appologies... I meant no offense.

Matt Gettemeier · September 19th, 2005, 04:21 PM

Can I send in a retort to that other guy's retort? If so let me know what I gotta' do.

I've always said the same thing... the closest mic wins.

Your analogy about a $5 mic over a $5K mic is obviously correct and I can't believe anybody would argue the point!

...whoops, gotta' go... more water's pouring into another part of this boat...

(Hey Douglas... thanks for doing your share of the bailing)

Tom Vandas · September 19th, 2005, 04:30 PM

Douglas, I must plead guilty to using the built-in mic on my VX2000 from time to time, especially when shooting alone. I don't mind the sound and it saves me having to get a stereo bed when I'm in a hurry.

Having said that, I completely agree with you. I throw the wideangle on the front end and get 2 feet from the person speaking. Can someone make a entire feature at that distance? Sure, but who wants to watch "My Dinner With Andre" over and over again?

David Ennis · September 19th, 2005, 05:37 PM

Talk is cheap. The guy has made an assertion in a vacuum. If it were a dialog, I'd say to him, "That is no less than astounding in the context my experience. Where can I see and hear your work?"

BTW, I think that the most remarkable thing about this thread is the humility with which it began. I could say more, but I'll just say I learned something. Thanks, DSE.

Hsien Yong · September 19th, 2005, 06:10 PM

Douglas, you're doing a great job... nothing wrong with your article.
Don't listen to that dude...

I'm guessing he was shooting rockumentarys...

Dave Perry · September 19th, 2005, 09:28 PM

DSE,

I'd like to read the article because I will be doing on location audio Wednesday and Thursday of this week. Could you point me to where I can find it?

September 19th, 2005, 10:45 AM	#1
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I think I've heard it all... This is somewhat OT, but just can't help myself. It makes me wonder where some of this incredible logic (or lack thereof) comes from. As some of you know, I write for various magazines. Recently I did an article for Studio Monthly on how to mic in the field. It's a short, super fast reference guide. In there, I make comment on how on-camera mics should almost never be used, and if used, then at least a mic better than the built in cam mic should be used. I further commented that a $5.00 computer mic placed next to/near the subject will usually sound better than a 5,000.00 mic placed 20 feet away from the subject. Studio Monthly received a comment following my article that went like this: “I take exception with Studio's advice on micing. I've made four feature movies, the fourth of which just hit the airwaves. And I've used the built-in mic on the camera for all the shoots. Never ever had a problem with micing. So now, the article was full of "knee-jerk" textbook stuff on micing. It may be good for documentaries, where you show the lavalier or boom-it. ...” Obviously I'm fairly confident in my work, but could it be that I'm not a realist, and rather an eliteist? Or are there really people out there making "professional" products that use built in mics? In honesty, my main reason for wondering is the management at the magazine doesn't know a mic from a mic stand, so they only can take the complaint as being possibly legit. Can I get a reality check? Are there really people working this way and getting away with it? __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

September 19th, 2005, 11:58 AM	#5
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Douglas, you're right - the nearer the mic to the sound it's recording the better. Most sound quality is lost between the sound producer and the sound sensor. Nice article BTW, just read it the other day. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

September 19th, 2005, 04:09 PM	#8
Pete Bauer Wrangler Join Date: May 2003 Location: Eagle River, AK Posts: 4,100	DSE, I cannot possibly top Grazie's post, so I'll actually be serious. Even for my first little short film for The DV Challenge last week, I used a lav and an AT897. On board mic for all those shots? No way. Thanks for all you do here, buddy. Hope we can meet one of these days. __________________ Pete Bauer The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science. Albert Einstein Trying to solve a DV mystery? You may find the answer behind the SEARCH function ... or be able to join a discussion already in progress!

September 19th, 2005, 05:37 PM	#12
David Ennis Fred Retread Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 1,227	Talk is cheap. The guy has made an assertion in a vacuum. If it were a dialog, I'd say to him, "That is no less than astounding in the context my experience. Where can I see and hear your work?" BTW, I think that the most remarkable thing about this thread is the humility with which it began. I could say more, but I'll just say I learned something. Thanks, DSE. __________________ "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence..." - Calvin Coolidge "My brain is wired to want to know how other things are wired." - Me Last edited by David Ennis; September 19th, 2005 at 07:40 PM.

September 19th, 2005, 09:28 PM	#14
Dave Perry Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Roanoke, VA Posts: 796	DSE, I'd like to read the article because I will be doing on location audio Wednesday and Thursday of this week. Could you point me to where I can find it? __________________ Dave Perry Cinematographer LLC Director of Photography • Editor • Digital Film Production • 540.915.2752 • daveperry.net

September 19th, 2005, 10:58 AM	#2
Dennis Wood Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 916	Are you sure the feedback didn't come from a guy shooting silent films?

September 19th, 2005, 11:02 AM	#3
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	DSE "I've made four feature movies, the fouth of which just hit the airwaves..." What does this mean? What are 'the airwaves' in this guy's world? Local cable access or HBO?

September 19th, 2005, 11:05 AM	#4
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Well, personally Douglas, I find tying a really taught string - I find the smooth quality ideal for this job - from an empty Corn can and knotting it to the on-board mic does it for me. Dirt cheap and has never let me down. Apart from anything else the Corn is really good for a snack. Position the open end towards the "talent" and hey presto! Voila! It's . . er .. in the can! Huh . . I really don't know why I had bothered spending something in excess of £1k on Senni shotties, lapels and now a completely pointless reporter's mic. Can you? Teh! Yah just lives and learns . . eh . . yah just lives and learns . . A reality check? If you are asking .. yah doesn't need it. My on board-mic can pick up my flatulents . . ppphhhoooarrghh . . some 8 feet BEHIND the on-board mic. Preeeety sensitive I'd say. Yup! The Onboard mic . . For those er . . more "Sensitive Moments in Movie Making!" Grazie!

September 19th, 2005, 01:15 PM	#6
A. J. deLange Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: McLean, VA United States Posts: 749	You may be an eliteist in the sense that I'll bet your hearing is one hell of a lot better than the average guy's. I'm guessing that if you put me into a triangle test situation with stock on camera mics and high dollar replacements therefore that I couldn't pick the high dollar mic. I'll bet you could.

September 19th, 2005, 02:46 PM	#7
Jack Smith Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: ontario Posts: 445	I would like to know what mic the guy uses that can replace the time,knowledge and effort that would normally be put into making sure you nail the audio.Boy, how many people will that put out of work? Douglas it surprises me that you would put ANY credance into that statement.We all strive to achieve a higher level and most of us are able to because of people like yourself that raise the bar thru not only technique and equipment but also mindset. Just want to say thanks.

September 19th, 2005, 04:17 PM	#9
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	It would be really funny if you saw one of that guy's films and it was all ECU of different forheads and adam's apples. Then you'd think, "hmm... I guess that guy was right." If there's one thing I've found it's that morons are like water... the very second you stop bailing in your boat of reasoning they'll overtake it and that ship sinks. That's how I see some of the forums too... it's like you have to keep that pail (metaphor for CORRECT information) going as the morons* keep pouring in wrong information like so much water. *If you are in fact a moron... my appologies... I meant no offense.

September 19th, 2005, 04:21 PM	#10
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	Can I send in a retort to that other guy's retort? If so let me know what I gotta' do. I've always said the same thing... the closest mic wins. Your analogy about a $5 mic over a $5K mic is obviously correct and I can't believe anybody would argue the point! ...whoops, gotta' go... more water's pouring into another part of this boat... (Hey Douglas... thanks for doing your share of the bailing)

September 19th, 2005, 04:30 PM	#11
Tom Vandas Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: currently in Kigali, Rwanda Posts: 144	Douglas, I must plead guilty to using the built-in mic on my VX2000 from time to time, especially when shooting alone. I don't mind the sound and it saves me having to get a stereo bed when I'm in a hurry. Having said that, I completely agree with you. I throw the wideangle on the front end and get 2 feet from the person speaking. Can someone make a entire feature at that distance? Sure, but who wants to watch "My Dinner With Andre" over and over again?

September 19th, 2005, 06:10 PM	#13
Hsien Yong Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 111	Douglas, you're doing a great job... nothing wrong with your article. Don't listen to that dude... I'm guessing he was shooting rockumentarys...