Got burned using the tascam HD-P2

[David Morgan]

Anyone have a clue what might have happened here?
I was recording a performance last night. I had the recorder locked to camera video sync as I was recording an hour plus show. Time code on the recorder was turned on but I was not using it. I wasn't jam syncing or feeding time code from the camera to the recorder either. I periodically look over at the incoming audio levels on the recorder (using external mic) and all was well. At some point toward the end of the show, the recorder went out of record mode. I looked over and it was just sitting there so to speak.
I'm aware of the FAT 32 file size limits but did not assume that the recorder would go out of record mode once it reached a certain file size. Maybe this isn't the issue.

I am using an 8 gig card. Can I not assume that I can record straight through to the cards capacity without the machine going out of record even though it might write several files to get there?


Any ideas?

[Rick Reineke]

When 'most' recorders (including the Tascam DR-40 &100) reach the 2GB maximum file size, or user-set file size, a new file is started. I don't know about the P2, but for the above, it's stated in the manual. In your case Dave, I suppose it could be a glitch. Was the program audio there prior to the time the recorder stopped? If so, your lucky... In many instances when recording is interrupted, by loss of power or otherwise, no TOC (or file name) is written and it's a PITA to locate and 'recover' the data.

[Pete Bauer]

What was the size of the file(s) that did get recorded? Did they play properly?

An audio recorder with timecode is on my shopping list, so I was interested enough to take took a look at the user manual:

http://tascam.com/content/downloads/...2_Eng_1_00.pdf

and it wasn't clear to me what happens if there are files in the trash folder and the CF card fills up while recording. Might it be that there were a lot of files in the trash folder so the machine just stopped recording when it saw a full card, rather than permanently deleting the oldest files in the trash folder to allow recording to continue?

[Ty Ford]

Or, as I have recently learned, it could be a counterfeit CF card. Apparently, you can find high GB cards on Ebay that are low GB cards that have been labeled as higher GB and sold for "bargain" prices.'

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Richard Crowley]

The problem is even worse than simple counterfeit (and counterfeiting is a bigger problem than we realize).

The problem is also the nature of semiconductor fabrication and life-cycle. I work in the place where the we develop and make the CPU chips in the majority of computers on this planet. Over the life-cycle of a single model of chip (CPU or memory or logic or whatever) manufacturers use succeeding processes as technology advances. A CPU chip (for example) that starts out the size of your big toe nail may, at the end of its life-cycle actually shrink down the the size of your little fingernail.

Now this "shrink" process doesn't necessarily change the functionality of the chip (although often it makes it faster and lower-power and cheaper). In the case of memory chips (both DRAM and FLASH) generational shrinkage makes it possible to cram more memory into roughly equivalent die sizes. And particularly in the case of non-volatile (i.e. "FLASH") memory, manufacturers also "double-up" data into memory cells (actually capacitors). Instead of just storing a charge (representing "1") or no charge ("0"), they can store four different levels of charge which would represent TWO bits of data (00, 01, 10, or 11) in the same capacitor NVRAM cell.

If you are just storing static data (computer files or images from your DSLR) there is no real downside here. But if you are storing dynamic data (such as a high-speed stream of HD video data) then you start running into the issue of "encoding" the multiple bits for storage like this. I have several Transcend SDHC cards which are identical except for the color stripe behind the brand name. The "red stripe" version is single bit per cell and fast enough for HDTV, but the "green stripe" versions are double-bit per cell and they are NOT fast enough for video.

OTOH, manufacturers seem to be now getting the clue that we need high-speed, sustained performance for HD video applications, and the newer products seem to be designed to be aware of that critical requirement.

I buy SDHC cards that can take the video data from my cameras (Sony EX1 and NX5), and if they are good enough for video, recording audio to them should be a cake-walk.

[David Morgan]

thx for the reply's.
I'm aware of the speed issues as I use a DTE recorder for firewire input on a canon xh-a1. I'm currently using the sony ex-1r.
I'll check the rating of the cards. I didn't purchase them and I may be a victim of "assumption".
I actually hope that's the problem as I can't stand not knowing what happened. Surely it will happen again if I don't find the cause.

[Pete Bauer]

File sizes? Used/free space on card? Trash folder status?

[Greg Miller]

Originally Posted by David Morgan

I can't stand not knowing what happened. Surely it will happen again if I don't find the cause.

In that case, I'd get all the good data off the card, format the card in my PC, put the card back in the recorder. Then I'd connect an audio source, press the "Record" button, and then keep an eye on the recorder to see what happens. If you get the same results several times in a row, at least you know there is a predictable pattern.

[Rick Reineke]

With most recorders, including the Tascam DR series , new and unused cards must be formatted in the recorder.. I would assume the P2 to be the same.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Rick Reineke

With most recorders, including the Tascam DR series , new and unused cards must be formatted in the recorder.. I would assume the P2 to be the same.

And further in that vein, IMHO, the best way to clear a used card of old data to prepare it for reuse in the next gig is actually to completely reformat it, NOT just erase the files on it.

[David Morgan]

Here is what I used. Seems like they are fast enough and will sustain constant audio only rates. I use class 10 cards for video


Using Sandisk Ultra II
card size = 8 Gigs


All SanDisk Ultra II products are rated Class 4, meaning that they have a read speed of 10MB/s and a write speed of 9MB/s.

[David Morgan]

-It occurred to me that I might have lost clock from the camera.
Since it was a long program, I was using the downconverted, composite video signal from the EX-1r as an external clock source. My guess is that a hiccup in that signal can take the deck out of record.



the deck also sync's to tri-level sync. anyone know how to get that?

-

[Greg Miller]

Rick:

I've formatted in the PC and then recorded successfully. But you are really correct, to be sure the card is formatted in a way that the recorder can use, format it in the recorder itself.

Steve:

Agreed!

[David Morgan]

Ok.
This is part 2 of an on-going investigation.
I did 3 one hour test recordings using the exact setup as in part one. Here is the sequence:

Setup:
Using video clock from camera composite video output. No external time code. Time code setting in the tascam must be set to "on" in order to select video clock.however, the EX-1 does not output time code. I'm using the composite sync to keep the tascam and camera in sync.

used a different, new media card. Same type, Sandisk Ultra ll, 8 gig card.
Test one: ran the recording and at one hour exactly, the recording just stopped.

Test two: Ran the same test. This time, the recording went by the 1 hour point and did not stop.

Next step:Downloaded and updated latest firmware.

Test three: Ran test. Recording stopped at exactly one hour.

Anyone know If the lack of external time code is somehow causing this? I'm at a loss to figure this out.

[Seth Bloombaum]

All three tests with the same card, but two of the three stopped at 1-hour? You have been formatting cards in the Tascam?

Grasping at straws, here... by any chance does the EX1 roll over to a new file after an hour?

IF the EX1 might send a glitch at the 1-hour mark, is there setting in the Tascam that will allow the internal clock to freewheel in the absence of an external sync source? Ah, I just checked the manual, have you tried setting TC freewheel to "Infinite"? The TC settings do interact with the clock settings - this is detailed on pg. 21-22 of the manual, but I'd want to test it out, since there isn't really a description of the complete theory of operation of clocksync and timecode. The manual is dicussing freewheeling in the context of TC, but I could see how that would apply to external clock, too.

Also note the Pull-Down/Pull-Up section. The manual seems to suggest that when you're receiving a sync source at 29.97fps (you are), you should set to "29.97Up".

I'd test these out. If no help, I do think this one is worth typing up and sending to support at Tascam - pretty mysterious.