Zoom H4n and Shotgun mic problem at DVinfo.net

Steve Lewis · December 10th, 2010, 09:03 PM

I am using a Zoom H4n field recorder with an Audio Technica AT897 shotgun microphone. The problem is that I am getting very weak levels from the microphone. Here is how I have everything configured:

-the AT897 shotgun mic is on a boom pole above the subject (about 2.5 feet away from mouth)
-the mic is connected directly to the Zoom H4n with a 25 foot XLR cable (inserted into the XLR jack marked "1")
-the H4n is in Stereo mode with Phantom Power (48v) turned ON
-I have the low-cut filter enabled as well
-I have to set the REC LEVEL (buttons on the right side of the device) all the way up to 100
-when I look at the levels on the H4n, i see the bar hovering around -24 to -20 (this is when the subject is speaking lines at a normal indoor volume level)

What am I doing wrong? Is there some setting inside the Zoom H4n that I am completely missing? I would really appreciate help with this, as I have been spinning my wheels for days now!
Thanks!

John Isgren · December 10th, 2010, 09:25 PM

Did you press the 1/2 input buttons (they should turn red)

Steve Lewis · December 10th, 2010, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Isgren

Did you press the 1/2 input buttons (they should turn red)

Yes, I hit the "1" button which made both 1 and 2 light up RED (the Mic input is no longer lit up)

(By the way, I am recording in 48/16-bit.)

Steve Lewis · December 11th, 2010, 10:56 AM

Could it be a faulty microphone? Is there some kind of test I can run to see if the problem is with the mic or the recorder?

Where should the "bars" be hovering when recording dialog?

I appreciate your help with this!

Rick Reineke · December 11th, 2010, 11:03 AM

Try another XLR cable, in some instances a seemingly good XLR cable may work fine with a dynamic mic, but will not perform properly with a Phantom Powered mic.

Are you sure you're running on Phantom Power and not a depleted battery? 'Some' microphones need the battery removed to pass Phantom Power... I don't know about the AT897's specifics, so that may not be the case.

Steve Lewis · December 11th, 2010, 11:31 AM

Phantom is on and there is no battery in the mic. I have tried 2 cables (both a few years old) and the problem persists. I haven't checked to see if these cables are for dynamic or phantom powered. How would I check that? (i thought any xlr cable would work, the ones i bought are from B&H)

Daniel Epstein · December 11th, 2010, 02:03 PM

2 and a 1/2 feet is pretty far for picking up normal voices. When you talk into the mic from a closer distance does the mic output drive the recorder level high enough. The mic may not be strong enough without a mixer/preamp to drive the input you are using? Does the H4n have a sensitivity adjustment on the input you are using? Maybe it is set up for a mic with stronger output?

Steve Lewis · December 11th, 2010, 02:45 PM

When I put the mic very close to my mouth (less than a foot) the mic is just fine. (Signal is strong enough) But of course that's not feasible for video/film work. The Zoom's XLR inputs are Mic level input only, so they are a fixed sensitivity (i think). I think you are right about the preamp thing, this mic just isn't very sensitive. Are most shotgun mics like this or can i get a mic that doesn't need a mixer/preamp when using a field recorder?

Matthew Capowski · December 11th, 2010, 03:06 PM

RE: AT897 & Zoom H4N

Search threads on this forum about those two. If I recall correctly, the AT897 is a poor match for the Zoom H4N and I've seen several people post about the AT897 being too quiet when used with a H4N. No solution was proposed as this was a matter of a non-optimal hardware combination.

Steve Lewis · December 14th, 2010, 03:04 PM

Okay this is just odd. I had been using XLR to get from the mic to the Zoom. I just bought a really cheap ($8 on Amazon) XLR to Mini Jack 3.5mm cable. Plugged the AT897 mic into the Zoom this way and it all sounds MUCH better (and I get both L and R too) Why would the XLR input sound worse/weaker than the 3.5mm input??

Steve House · December 15th, 2010, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Lewis

Okay this is just odd. I had been using XLR to get from the mic to the Zoom. I just bought a really cheap ($8 on Amazon) XLR to Mini Jack 3.5mm cable. Plugged the AT897 mic into the Zoom this way and it all sounds MUCH better (and I get both L and R too) Why would the XLR input sound worse/weaker than the 3.5mm input??

According to the specs, the XLR minimum sensitivity is -42dBm while the External Mic sensitivity is -47dBm. That means the XLR is less sensitive, ie, requires a HIGHER signal for the equivalent recording level, than is the External Mic jack.

Tom Weistar · December 19th, 2010, 12:03 AM

I had very similar findings with my Rode NTG 2. The mini jack is definitely hotter. One thing to check with the XLR inputs is have mono mix down off and you will get more gain on the single chanel.

Brandon Paschal · April 5th, 2011, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Lewis

Okay this is just odd. I had been using XLR to get from the mic to the Zoom. I just bought a really cheap ($8 on Amazon) XLR to Mini Jack 3.5mm cable. Plugged the AT897 mic into the Zoom this way and it all sounds MUCH better (and I get both L and R too)

Steve - I'm looking at a shotgun mic for similar purposes w/ an H4n. Now that you have a hotter signal, are you happy with the audio?

Thanks, Brandon

Jay Massengill · April 6th, 2011, 08:22 AM

The AT897 is a good mic but it has about the lowest output of any mics in this class of shotguns. The AT897 came out when the DVX-100 was a hugely popular camera that had very sensitive mic inputs and the two worked well together.
The H4n does not have very sensitive XLR mic inputs. So if you are using an AT897 I would recommend a mixer or preamp between the mic and the recorder.
Or you could use a much higher output mic, like the AT875R, or the Rode NTG-3 or older AT4073/newer BP4073. The NTG-1 and NTG-2 are a little hotter than the AT897, but with the H4n they would still benefit greatly from a preamp or mixer.
While the mini-mic input on the Zoom is more sensitive, it's not as rugged as the combo inputs and it would be harder to keep the unbalanced cable length to a minimum like you can with a short link from a mixer to the unbalanced 1/4-inch jacks of the Zoom. Once you connect an unbalanced XLR to mini-trs adapter to your mic, no matter how long the regular XLR cable is, the whole signal path is now unbalanced.

December 10th, 2010, 09:03 PM	#1
Steve Lewis Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 233	Zoom H4n and Shotgun mic problem I am using a Zoom H4n field recorder with an Audio Technica AT897 shotgun microphone. The problem is that I am getting very weak levels from the microphone. Here is how I have everything configured: -the AT897 shotgun mic is on a boom pole above the subject (about 2.5 feet away from mouth) -the mic is connected directly to the Zoom H4n with a 25 foot XLR cable (inserted into the XLR jack marked "1") -the H4n is in Stereo mode with Phantom Power (48v) turned ON -I have the low-cut filter enabled as well -I have to set the REC LEVEL (buttons on the right side of the device) all the way up to 100 -when I look at the levels on the H4n, i see the bar hovering around -24 to -20 (this is when the subject is speaking lines at a normal indoor volume level) What am I doing wrong? Is there some setting inside the Zoom H4n that I am completely missing? I would really appreciate help with this, as I have been spinning my wheels for days now! Thanks! __________________ www.spreefilms.com - Give me a museum and I'll fill it!

December 11th, 2010, 10:56 AM	#4
Steve Lewis Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 233	Could it be a faulty microphone? Is there some kind of test I can run to see if the problem is with the mic or the recorder? Where should the "bars" be hovering when recording dialog? I appreciate your help with this! __________________ www.spreefilms.com - Give me a museum and I'll fill it!

December 11th, 2010, 11:31 AM	#6
Steve Lewis Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 233	Phantom is on and there is no battery in the mic. I have tried 2 cables (both a few years old) and the problem persists. I haven't checked to see if these cables are for dynamic or phantom powered. How would I check that? (i thought any xlr cable would work, the ones i bought are from B&H) __________________ www.spreefilms.com - Give me a museum and I'll fill it!

December 11th, 2010, 02:45 PM	#8
Steve Lewis Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 233	When I put the mic very close to my mouth (less than a foot) the mic is just fine. (Signal is strong enough) But of course that's not feasible for video/film work. The Zoom's XLR inputs are Mic level input only, so they are a fixed sensitivity (i think). I think you are right about the preamp thing, this mic just isn't very sensitive. Are most shotgun mics like this or can i get a mic that doesn't need a mixer/preamp when using a field recorder? __________________ www.spreefilms.com - Give me a museum and I'll fill it!

December 11th, 2010, 03:06 PM	#9
Matthew Capowski Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Posts: 43	RE: AT897 & Zoom H4N Search threads on this forum about those two. If I recall correctly, the AT897 is a poor match for the Zoom H4N and I've seen several people post about the AT897 being too quiet when used with a H4N. No solution was proposed as this was a matter of a non-optimal hardware combination. __________________ http://www.davidbohmsociety.org

December 10th, 2010, 09:25 PM	#2
John Isgren New Boot Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 21	Did you press the 1/2 input buttons (they should turn red)

December 11th, 2010, 11:03 AM	#5
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,039	Try another XLR cable, in some instances a seemingly good XLR cable may work fine with a dynamic mic, but will not perform properly with a Phantom Powered mic. Are you sure you're running on Phantom Power and not a depleted battery? 'Some' microphones need the battery removed to pass Phantom Power... I don't know about the AT897's specifics, so that may not be the case.

December 11th, 2010, 02:03 PM	#7
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	2 and a 1/2 feet is pretty far for picking up normal voices. When you talk into the mic from a closer distance does the mic output drive the recorder level high enough. The mic may not be strong enough without a mixer/preamp to drive the input you are using? Does the H4n have a sensitivity adjustment on the input you are using? Maybe it is set up for a mic with stronger output?

December 14th, 2010, 03:04 PM	#10
Steve Lewis Major Player Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Goleta, CA Posts: 233	Okay this is just odd. I had been using XLR to get from the mic to the Zoom. I just bought a really cheap ($8 on Amazon) XLR to Mini Jack 3.5mm cable. Plugged the AT897 mic into the Zoom this way and it all sounds MUCH better (and I get both L and R too) Why would the XLR input sound worse/weaker than the 3.5mm input?? __________________ www.spreefilms.com - Give me a museum and I'll fill it!

December 19th, 2010, 12:03 AM	#12
Tom Weistar New Boot Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 24	H4N settings I had very similar findings with my Rode NTG 2. The mini jack is definitely hotter. One thing to check with the XLR inputs is have mono mix down off and you will get more gain on the single chanel.

April 6th, 2011, 08:22 AM	#14
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	Re: Zoom H4n and Shotgun mic problem The AT897 is a good mic but it has about the lowest output of any mics in this class of shotguns. The AT897 came out when the DVX-100 was a hugely popular camera that had very sensitive mic inputs and the two worked well together. The H4n does not have very sensitive XLR mic inputs. So if you are using an AT897 I would recommend a mixer or preamp between the mic and the recorder. Or you could use a much higher output mic, like the AT875R, or the Rode NTG-3 or older AT4073/newer BP4073. The NTG-1 and NTG-2 are a little hotter than the AT897, but with the H4n they would still benefit greatly from a preamp or mixer. While the mini-mic input on the Zoom is more sensitive, it's not as rugged as the combo inputs and it would be harder to keep the unbalanced cable length to a minimum like you can with a short link from a mixer to the unbalanced 1/4-inch jacks of the Zoom. Once you connect an unbalanced XLR to mini-trs adapter to your mic, no matter how long the regular XLR cable is, the whole signal path is now unbalanced.