Great sound on live news

Leslie Knox · April 24th, 2010, 06:37 AM

I know clothes rustle when using lavalier mics is a never ending issue and has been mentioned a lot but perhaps this is a slightly different question about it.

I've watched a lot of news programmes recently and noticed the presenters and guests are always mic'd up with lavaliers but the sound is great. Considering how much they move I can't say I ever hear much -if any- cothes rustle or hand rubbing. I know these shows probably employ great sound people who position the mic well, but it really seems impossible to avoid these problems. Would they be using some sort of other equipment that would help in this - does it go through mixing desks etc?

Paul R Johnson · April 24th, 2010, 07:08 AM

It certainly goes through mixing desks, but a clip on lav is pretty quiet normally - the rustling sound is only a problem when the mic itself rubs against something. Once the clip is on, and the cable fixed so it can't move over the end few inches - that is normally that. Some brands have stiffer cable that sometime rubs and then you get more of a rumble - just experiment with getting good positioning and you're away. Low frequency rumble can be eq'd out if this is a problem by a tweak at the mixer - some desks having a dedicated low cut switch on each channel.

Sacha Rosen · April 24th, 2010, 09:00 AM

ya you should only get clothing noise if the mic is hidden underneath clothes.

Steve House · April 24th, 2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leslie Knox

I know clothes rustle when using lavalier mics is a never ending issue and has been mentioned a lot but perhaps this is a slightly different question about it.

I've watched a lot of news programmes recently and noticed the presenters and guests are always mic'd up with lavaliers but the sound is great. Considering how much they move I can't say I ever hear much -if any- cothes rustle or hand rubbing. I know these shows probably employ great sound people who position the mic well, but it really seems impossible to avoid these problems. Would they be using some sort of other equipment that would help in this - does it go through mixing desks etc?

As the others have said, the secret is in the positioning of the mic. It's placed so the mic head is out of direct contact with the clothing, with a proper strain relief loop in the cable near the mic, which is then often fastened to the fabric with gaffer's tape out of site on the inside of the shirt or jacket so moderate subject movement doesn't flex the last few inches of cable up near the mic head.

Richard Alvarez · April 24th, 2010, 02:20 PM

Use of the 'brodcast loop' when positioning the mic is essential.

Allan Black · April 24th, 2010, 04:44 PM

Leslie .. given the above info you're also listening to great voices and presentation .. these days usually in a news set built with sound in mind.
Cheers.

Leslie Knox · April 26th, 2010, 12:59 PM

OK, thanks for the responses. Seems like a little more practice on my part is in order.

Richard Crowley · April 29th, 2010, 07:27 PM

Sound from local TV news programs isn't always that "great". I've heard several recently in my market (Portland, Oregon) with up-cut audio cues. And with hollow-sound "phasing" from bringing up the mic on the weather reporter over at the green-screen while the main news-reader is still speaking. It sounds like they didn't have an experienced audio person and sent some production assistant into the audio booth to mix the show. :-(

Leslie Knox · May 6th, 2010, 01:05 PM

I've used the techniques mentioned above and on the whole it works fine. I still get some noise from rubbing hands or clothes rustle if the person is quite animated. But on such occassions I ask them to keep stiller.

I did have a torrid time today though when interviewing a gentlemen in a fairly shiny suit. i'm not sure what material it was made of but every time he moved i got terrible rustle from his clothes. I told him to keep still but even small hand movement caused noise. I even moved the mic to the tie but that didnt help either.

I was wondering if certain materials cause more issues than others...or perhaps I'm still doing something wrong?

Dan Brockett · May 6th, 2010, 02:28 PM

Hi Leslie:

It doesn't sound as if there is anything you can do about it but a "shiny suit" to me says nylon or a synthetic. These always have been and always be a challenge as far as sound. When working with a wardrobe department, we always request good old cotton and wool, where possible. Silk chiffon blouses on women always cause rustling noises and generally it is best to avoid synthetic materials as they tend to be noisy. Easy on a feature where you have input on what the talent will wear, really difficult on a documentary or corporate shoot where you don't have any control over what talent will wear.

I have gone so far as to bring a pile of new men's shirts and women's blouses when shooting a lot of interviews in a single day. I always send out a wardrobe guideline sheet to the project's producer and or talent that outlines what not to wear. Besides shound issues, there are always white and light colors that blow out and cause uneven exposure, there are moire' problems with many patterns, jewelry clunking around causes sound issues, the list goes on and on. If someone shows up wearing a shiny black nylon suit with a white or red and white striped Oxford shirt or a hot pink silk chiffon blouse, it can be nice to have wardrobe choices. Another strategy I always use is to ask the interviewees to bring 2-3 choices for wardrobe. That way you at least have a fighting chance of ending up with something that will work for sound and for picture.

Dan

Leslie Knox · August 22nd, 2010, 08:13 AM

Its been a while since I started this thread and I've been doing my best to solve the original issues and hopefully I'm getting closer. What i think I'm experiencing is not clothes rubbing the cable but rather clothes rubbing against clothing. I bought a gun mic which a number of people have suggested to me and tried to use that as a means to capture the interviews. I hoped it would be the magic bullet but in reality I would say its no better than the lav mic. I can still hear the noise from the contributors suits/clothing when they move their arms and rub their hands. This is all pretty obvious, it is a mic after-all but I still don't understand why I don't hear this on TV programs I watch.

Sorry for sounding like a scratched record but I'm tearing my hair out at this.

Robert Turchick · August 22nd, 2010, 09:54 AM

Kind of a strange thing but you need to take some control of their wardrobe. Even if its not actors, you should come up with guidlines to send to your subjects before the shoot. Photographers do this all the time and its greatly appreciated by the subject when you make them look good. And also need to work on your lav placement technique. I like about 6" or closer from the mouth usually a collar or near the first buttoned button or on a tie or jacket lapel. Women are tougher and I ran into an issue on my last shoot as the lady had really long hair that kept covering the mic and making noise. Broadcast loop is essential.

And with the shotgun, if you are hearing their hands you're not aiming it correctly. Sounds like you may have it too far away. Think of the mic as projecting a cone. closer = smaller cone and better pick up of voice. Too far and the cone will include unwanted things. Also you may have it above their head pointed straight down which would result in extra clothes and hands sounds.

Richard Crowley · August 22nd, 2010, 10:31 AM

Note that selecting wardrobe appropriate for the situation is part of the job skills of a news reporter or anchor. If they are clueless about wearing noisy clothing or not knowing where to clip the microphone, they won't go very far in the business. So it is in their own best interest to learn at least the bare minimum of acceptable performance.

It is likely different with the kind of on-screen "talent" that most of us here are shooting. They are typically NOT professionals and have no experience in this area, so it is up to us to make the best of the situation.

Jimmy Tuffrey · August 25th, 2010, 05:30 PM

You sound like you are listening hard and on the right tracks.
Try and take some recordings of these moments home and listen over monitors, then a hi-fi, and then on a tv and also a laptop too
You'll be surprised how less obvious and more natural these sounds can be than they sound on headphones.
Also it depends how loud the contributor speaks.

Personally, I think it's a brave man that takes "control" of the wardrobe department. I'd make friends without making too many suggestions.

Jimmy Tuffrey · August 25th, 2010, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Crowley

If they are clueless about wearing noisy clothing or not knowing where to clip the microphone, they won't go very far in the business.

Are you sure ?

April 24th, 2010, 06:37 AM	#1
Leslie Knox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 20	Great sound on live news - how? I know clothes rustle when using lavalier mics is a never ending issue and has been mentioned a lot but perhaps this is a slightly different question about it. I've watched a lot of news programmes recently and noticed the presenters and guests are always mic'd up with lavaliers but the sound is great. Considering how much they move I can't say I ever hear much -if any- cothes rustle or hand rubbing. I know these shows probably employ great sound people who position the mic well, but it really seems impossible to avoid these problems. Would they be using some sort of other equipment that would help in this - does it go through mixing desks etc?

April 24th, 2010, 04:44 PM	#6
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,936	Leslie .. given the above info you're also listening to great voices and presentation .. these days usually in a news set built with sound in mind. Cheers. __________________ Drink more tap water. On admission at Sydney hospitals more than 5% of day patients are de-hydrated.

August 22nd, 2010, 09:54 AM	#12
Robert Turchick Trustee Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Mesa, AZ Posts: 1,389	Kind of a strange thing but you need to take some control of their wardrobe. Even if its not actors, you should come up with guidlines to send to your subjects before the shoot. Photographers do this all the time and its greatly appreciated by the subject when you make them look good. And also need to work on your lav placement technique. I like about 6" or closer from the mouth usually a collar or near the first buttoned button or on a tie or jacket lapel. Women are tougher and I ran into an issue on my last shoot as the lady had really long hair that kept covering the mic and making noise. Broadcast loop is essential. And with the shotgun, if you are hearing their hands you're not aiming it correctly. Sounds like you may have it too far away. Think of the mic as projecting a cone. closer = smaller cone and better pick up of voice. Too far and the cone will include unwanted things. Also you may have it above their head pointed straight down which would result in extra clothes and hands sounds. __________________ The older I get, the better I was!

April 24th, 2010, 07:08 AM	#2
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	It certainly goes through mixing desks, but a clip on lav is pretty quiet normally - the rustling sound is only a problem when the mic itself rubs against something. Once the clip is on, and the cable fixed so it can't move over the end few inches - that is normally that. Some brands have stiffer cable that sometime rubs and then you get more of a rumble - just experiment with getting good positioning and you're away. Low frequency rumble can be eq'd out if this is a problem by a tweak at the mixer - some desks having a dedicated low cut switch on each channel.

April 24th, 2010, 09:00 AM	#3
Sacha Rosen Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba Canada Posts: 86	ya you should only get clothing noise if the mic is hidden underneath clothes.

April 24th, 2010, 02:20 PM	#5
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Use of the 'brodcast loop' when positioning the mic is essential.

April 26th, 2010, 12:59 PM	#7
Leslie Knox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 20	OK, thanks for the responses. Seems like a little more practice on my part is in order.

April 29th, 2010, 07:27 PM	#8
Richard Crowley Trustee Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 1,238	Sound from local TV news programs isn't always that "great". I've heard several recently in my market (Portland, Oregon) with up-cut audio cues. And with hollow-sound "phasing" from bringing up the mic on the weather reporter over at the green-screen while the main news-reader is still speaking. It sounds like they didn't have an experienced audio person and sent some production assistant into the audio booth to mix the show. :-(

May 6th, 2010, 01:05 PM	#9
Leslie Knox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 20	I've used the techniques mentioned above and on the whole it works fine. I still get some noise from rubbing hands or clothes rustle if the person is quite animated. But on such occassions I ask them to keep stiller. I did have a torrid time today though when interviewing a gentlemen in a fairly shiny suit. i'm not sure what material it was made of but every time he moved i got terrible rustle from his clothes. I told him to keep still but even small hand movement caused noise. I even moved the mic to the tie but that didnt help either. I was wondering if certain materials cause more issues than others...or perhaps I'm still doing something wrong?

May 6th, 2010, 02:28 PM	#10
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Hi Leslie: It doesn't sound as if there is anything you can do about it but a "shiny suit" to me says nylon or a synthetic. These always have been and always be a challenge as far as sound. When working with a wardrobe department, we always request good old cotton and wool, where possible. Silk chiffon blouses on women always cause rustling noises and generally it is best to avoid synthetic materials as they tend to be noisy. Easy on a feature where you have input on what the talent will wear, really difficult on a documentary or corporate shoot where you don't have any control over what talent will wear. I have gone so far as to bring a pile of new men's shirts and women's blouses when shooting a lot of interviews in a single day. I always send out a wardrobe guideline sheet to the project's producer and or talent that outlines what not to wear. Besides shound issues, there are always white and light colors that blow out and cause uneven exposure, there are moire' problems with many patterns, jewelry clunking around causes sound issues, the list goes on and on. If someone shows up wearing a shiny black nylon suit with a white or red and white striped Oxford shirt or a hot pink silk chiffon blouse, it can be nice to have wardrobe choices. Another strategy I always use is to ask the interviewees to bring 2-3 choices for wardrobe. That way you at least have a fighting chance of ending up with something that will work for sound and for picture. Dan

August 22nd, 2010, 08:13 AM	#11
Leslie Knox New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: London, UK Posts: 20	Its been a while since I started this thread and I've been doing my best to solve the original issues and hopefully I'm getting closer. What i think I'm experiencing is not clothes rubbing the cable but rather clothes rubbing against clothing. I bought a gun mic which a number of people have suggested to me and tried to use that as a means to capture the interviews. I hoped it would be the magic bullet but in reality I would say its no better than the lav mic. I can still hear the noise from the contributors suits/clothing when they move their arms and rub their hands. This is all pretty obvious, it is a mic after-all but I still don't understand why I don't hear this on TV programs I watch. Sorry for sounding like a scratched record but I'm tearing my hair out at this.

August 22nd, 2010, 10:31 AM	#13
Richard Crowley Trustee Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 1,238	Note that selecting wardrobe appropriate for the situation is part of the job skills of a news reporter or anchor. If they are clueless about wearing noisy clothing or not knowing where to clip the microphone, they won't go very far in the business. So it is in their own best interest to learn at least the bare minimum of acceptable performance. It is likely different with the kind of on-screen "talent" that most of us here are shooting. They are typically NOT professionals and have no experience in this area, so it is up to us to make the best of the situation.

August 25th, 2010, 05:30 PM	#14
Jimmy Tuffrey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bristol U.K. Posts: 244	You sound like you are listening hard and on the right tracks. Try and take some recordings of these moments home and listen over monitors, then a hi-fi, and then on a tv and also a laptop too You'll be surprised how less obvious and more natural these sounds can be than they sound on headphones. Also it depends how loud the contributor speaks. Personally, I think it's a brave man that takes "control" of the wardrobe department. I'd make friends without making too many suggestions.