Best Solution For Canon 7D? Thinking About Taking It Back... at DVinfo.net

Corey Benoit · March 5th, 2010, 07:59 PM

i bought a canon 7d thinking about taking it back because of the stupid "auto gain control"...

i did find a beachtek unit, and i was wondering is this signal that is placed in the right channel really apparent or is it truely in the 20khz area?

i have a recording studio/soundlab so i can shelf eq or brickwall anything above 17khz and that will eliminate it right?

also is most movies audio recorded mono with one condenser? or is it 2? cause i was thinking about 1 mic over the foreground for subjects in the main scene and one somewhere else for ambience...

any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!

thanks

corey

Jon Fairhurst · March 5th, 2010, 08:22 PM

You can use The juicedLink CX211 or CX231 with a DN101 to amplify the signal and defeat the AGC. Or you can use a recorder like the Zoom H4n if you want to record separately and sync later, like people have been doing with film forever.

And yes, dialog is generally mono. If people are close to one another and you have a good boom operator, then one mic will do. If you will use lavaliers (clip on mics), then you will want to record multiple channels so you can balance things in post. If people don't step on one another's lines, then you can mix down to one channel and still be able to process each actor's lines separately. If it's a Mamet script, people talk at the same time, so you'll want separate channels.

In any case, dialog in the final product is generally mono. On a surround system, it comes from the center channel.

Alex Donkle · March 5th, 2010, 08:23 PM

Separate recorder.

And/or just hire a sound guy.

In post, the boom mic is king. Wireless mics are 2nd, plant mics are 3rd. And the goal of ALL of them is capturing the dialog well.

Other than that, nothing is used. Recording ambience in a 2nd track is honestly not of any help. Just get the dialog clearly and post can handle the rest.

Corey Benoit · March 5th, 2010, 08:35 PM

is the signal created by the dn101 very audible or is it truely 20khz? if it is i can just shelf it out with powerful eq settings....right?

which is better juicedlink or beachtek? there is a new beachtek unit for 399 coming at the end of the month that is supposed to have new phantom powered pre-amps with the agc defeater?

any news on canon doing the agc removal with firmware?

Alex Donkle · March 5th, 2010, 08:44 PM

I'm not sure which of those is better, but I am sure that it won't make a difference if you're running into the 7D. None of the current DSLRs (that I've seen at least) have anything close to good audio.

If you want to run your main audio to camera, get a different camera.

Corey Benoit · March 5th, 2010, 09:15 PM

well the 7d does 48khz, and if i use a good pre-amp and a great mic, it would be almost unnoticeable right?

Alex Donkle · March 5th, 2010, 10:53 PM

That still would leave you without any way to monitor the audio, as 7D only outputs sound on playback, not during recording.

Even if the AGC could be defeated (until someone does and posts real results, I'm not buying it) the ADC (analog to digital converter) is likely suspect as well. Since no one's ever used the camera without AGC as the chief thing to screw up audio, it's hard to say but I doubt they put anything quality in there.

On top of that, although people mention 48k, there's a lack of into about what bit-depth the camera uses. It's either 12-bit or 16-bit. 16-bit is okay, but with AGC a 12-bit recorder could easily be what Canon used. No one seems to know though and Canon hasn't posted specs that I've seen.

Corey Benoit · March 5th, 2010, 11:25 PM

there was this forum coffee something, and the guy tested the new beachtek dxa-slr with the phantom power and pre-amps, with monitor leveling, and it sounded really clean and good in the camera....

i believe its 16bit as it sounds like it..if it were 12bit and 48khz, it would be really muffled and oversampled sounding....

Charles Papert · March 5th, 2010, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corey Benoit

there was this forum coffee something

here'd be my best guess on that:

COFFEY INTERACTIVE • Index page

Didn't know they had a forum but I've shopped there, they are one of the two top production audio resources in LA.

Rick Reineke · March 6th, 2010, 09:54 AM

It is my understanding that Canon just released a firmware update that includes manual record level control and a meter in the VF.
Apparently someone at Canon is listening.

Daniel Epstein · March 6th, 2010, 10:11 AM

Does the firmware update apply for the 7D or just the 5d Mark II which it is a major change for?

Stephen Mick · March 6th, 2010, 10:15 AM

Firmware upgrade is for 5DII, not the 7D.

Marco Leavitt · March 6th, 2010, 10:45 AM

Man, to me, double system is the only option with that camera. Every other work around is just so much lipstick on a pig.

Bob Kerner · March 6th, 2010, 10:55 AM

From what I've read about all the HDSLRs, double system is required and the tool of choice seems to be the relatively inexpensive H4n by Zoom.

Record your audio directly to the zoom. Camera captures images and reference audio to sync the images with the Zoom's sound files. Some people use a plug in called Plural Eyes to do this. I've only used the 7d once but was able to sync the sound based on a hand-clap at the beginning of the scenes. Not hard at all and didn't require software.

Double system sound is a good option even if you don't "need" it. I realized last week there are times I need audio from a workshop or some other activity but the action is dull. I dont want to run the camera just for the audio. A standalone recorder would solve that.

Corey Benoit · March 6th, 2010, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Leavitt

Man, to me, double system is the only option with that camera. Every other work around is just so much lipstick on a pig.

according to this guy, the juicedlink has a better preamp and cleaner more natural sound than the "seperate" recording devices that are out now...

including the h4n, and the m-audio...check it out...if the firmware comes out for 7d anytime soon, seems like juicedlink is the only real option...

March 5th, 2010, 07:59 PM	#1
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	Best Solution For Canon 7D? Thinking About Taking It Back... i bought a canon 7d thinking about taking it back because of the stupid "auto gain control"... i did find a beachtek unit, and i was wondering is this signal that is placed in the right channel really apparent or is it truely in the 20khz area? i have a recording studio/soundlab so i can shelf eq or brickwall anything above 17khz and that will eliminate it right? also is most movies audio recorded mono with one condenser? or is it 2? cause i was thinking about 1 mic over the foreground for subjects in the main scene and one somewhere else for ambience... any help and suggestions would be greatly appreciated!! thanks corey

March 5th, 2010, 08:22 PM	#2
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	You can use The juicedLink CX211 or CX231 with a DN101 to amplify the signal and defeat the AGC. Or you can use a recorder like the Zoom H4n if you want to record separately and sync later, like people have been doing with film forever. And yes, dialog is generally mono. If people are close to one another and you have a good boom operator, then one mic will do. If you will use lavaliers (clip on mics), then you will want to record multiple channels so you can balance things in post. If people don't step on one another's lines, then you can mix down to one channel and still be able to process each actor's lines separately. If it's a Mamet script, people talk at the same time, so you'll want separate channels. In any case, dialog in the final product is generally mono. On a surround system, it comes from the center channel. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 6th, 2010, 10:15 AM	#12
Stephen Mick Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 167	Not for 7D Firmware upgrade is for 5DII, not the 7D.

March 6th, 2010, 10:55 AM	#14
Bob Kerner Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: New York Posts: 388	From what I've read about all the HDSLRs, double system is required and the tool of choice seems to be the relatively inexpensive H4n by Zoom. Record your audio directly to the zoom. Camera captures images and reference audio to sync the images with the Zoom's sound files. Some people use a plug in called Plural Eyes to do this. I've only used the 7d once but was able to sync the sound based on a hand-clap at the beginning of the scenes. Not hard at all and didn't require software. Double system sound is a good option even if you don't "need" it. I realized last week there are times I need audio from a workshop or some other activity but the action is dull. I dont want to run the camera just for the audio. A standalone recorder would solve that. Last edited by Bob Kerner; March 6th, 2010 at 10:56 AM. Reason: spelling

March 5th, 2010, 08:23 PM	#3
Alex Donkle Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 38	Separate recorder. And/or just hire a sound guy. In post, the boom mic is king. Wireless mics are 2nd, plant mics are 3rd. And the goal of ALL of them is capturing the dialog well. Other than that, nothing is used. Recording ambience in a 2nd track is honestly not of any help. Just get the dialog clearly and post can handle the rest.

March 5th, 2010, 08:35 PM	#4
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	is the signal created by the dn101 very audible or is it truely 20khz? if it is i can just shelf it out with powerful eq settings....right? which is better juicedlink or beachtek? there is a new beachtek unit for 399 coming at the end of the month that is supposed to have new phantom powered pre-amps with the agc defeater? any news on canon doing the agc removal with firmware?

March 5th, 2010, 08:44 PM	#5
Alex Donkle Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 38	I'm not sure which of those is better, but I am sure that it won't make a difference if you're running into the 7D. None of the current DSLRs (that I've seen at least) have anything close to good audio. If you want to run your main audio to camera, get a different camera.

March 5th, 2010, 09:15 PM	#6
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	well the 7d does 48khz, and if i use a good pre-amp and a great mic, it would be almost unnoticeable right?

March 5th, 2010, 10:53 PM	#7
Alex Donkle Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Honolulu, HI Posts: 38	That still would leave you without any way to monitor the audio, as 7D only outputs sound on playback, not during recording. Even if the AGC could be defeated (until someone does and posts real results, I'm not buying it) the ADC (analog to digital converter) is likely suspect as well. Since no one's ever used the camera without AGC as the chief thing to screw up audio, it's hard to say but I doubt they put anything quality in there. On top of that, although people mention 48k, there's a lack of into about what bit-depth the camera uses. It's either 12-bit or 16-bit. 16-bit is okay, but with AGC a 12-bit recorder could easily be what Canon used. No one seems to know though and Canon hasn't posted specs that I've seen.

March 5th, 2010, 11:25 PM	#8
Corey Benoit Major Player Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: www.faymusmedia.com Posts: 203	there was this forum coffee something, and the guy tested the new beachtek dxa-slr with the phantom power and pre-amps, with monitor leveling, and it sounded really clean and good in the camera.... i believe its 16bit as it sounds like it..if it were 12bit and 48khz, it would be really muffled and oversampled sounding....

March 6th, 2010, 09:54 AM	#10
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,039	It is my understanding that Canon just released a firmware update that includes manual record level control and a meter in the VF. Apparently someone at Canon is listening.

March 6th, 2010, 10:11 AM	#11
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Does the firmware update apply for the 7D or just the 5d Mark II which it is a major change for?

March 6th, 2010, 10:45 AM	#13
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Man, to me, double system is the only option with that camera. Every other work around is just so much lipstick on a pig.