416/30 MKH Stereo Setup - Recommended?

[Murray Fredericks]

Hi All,

I have just been reading about a field stereo setup using Sennheiser 416 and a MKH 30.

I thought if this works it could be a good solution for rugged field use having the 416 as a general mono for dialogue then adding in the mkh 30 for stereo, together in a windshield?

Murray

[Brian P. Reynolds]

Yes it should work... BUT with 2 mics in a rycote or similar windshields may become a bit heavy for the mic suspension.
Also working in discreet MS can cause problems when editing if the editor isn't aware of how it works.
I find working in XY for broadcast causes less problems and headaches as most people find it easy to grasp stereo as an XY signal.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

Hi All,

I have just been reading about a field stereo setup using Sennheiser 416 and a MKH 30.

I thought if this works it could be a good solution for rugged field use having the 416 as a general mono for dialogue then adding in the mkh 30 for stereo, together in a windshield?

Murray

Yes, this works pretty well - but the MKH 30 + 60 combination is better as it is a perfect match for the 30.

Rycote do special windshields and suspensions for both these options.

[Murray Fredericks]

Thanks for the replies!

So I am now down to looking at either:

1. an MKH 30/40 or 30/60 setup for MS, or

2. A 418-S, or

3. A 416 and go for the stereo image afterwards in post, or

4.416 /30

One question, the 30/40 setup seems to have a very wide pickup area. Would this be suitable for dialogue also or really just ambient sounds? Would the 30/60 be better in this regard?

I will be using a Sound devices 702 recorder and 302 mixer as suggested.

Murray

[Steve House]

Dialogue normally should be mono. Stereo is for music, ambiance, and perhaps some SFX. When recording your dialogue, though, you don't want ANY ambiance intruding into the recording if you can help it, hence none of your stereo recording options make any sense to me if you're talking about dialogue. In post you centre the mono dialogue track between the left and right channels and leave it there - don't worry about its "stereo image" in post, most of the time it shouldn't have one. It can be disorienting to the audience for the dialogue to be wandering around in the sound field as the various shot's are intercut. Then stereo ambiance is added to give the scene depth. Remember too that if this is going to broadcast TV, many viewers will be watching in mono or with such lousy stereo imaging that it might as well be mono.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

Thanks for the replies!

So I am now down to looking at either:

1. an MKH 30/40 or 30/60 setup for MS,

Either is good - but you have missed out the half-way option of the MKH 30/50 - this is the same size as the 30/40 but the 50 has the same directivity as the 60 at low frequencies. Just that the 50 remains super-cardioid all the way up and the 60 has the interference tube which makes it more directional as frequency rises.

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

2. A 418-S,

I would tend to avoid this one - the mid mic is the same as a 416 and the side is a fig-8 made from back-to-back cardioids. - the 30/40, 30/50, 30/60 options will p*ss all over this one in quality. The 418-s is an excellent mic. for the price but the others are very much better.

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

3. A 416 and go for the stereo image afterwards in post,

An option, but what are the other mics you will use? This option is not a one-man option as you have to us other mics separate from the gun mic.

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

4.416 /30

This is basically the cheaper option to te 30/60 but not so well matched and not quite so good.

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

One question, the 30/40 set-up seems to have a very wide pick-up area. Would this be suitable for dialogue also or really just ambient sounds? Would the 30/60 be better in this regard?

Actually, you may find the 30/50 the best option as it's small and easy to throw around like the 30/40 but with the greater directivity similar to the 30/60.

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

I will be using a Sound devices 702 recorder and 302 mixer as suggested.

Good choice, but the Nagra LB is also worth considering.

I hope all this helps.

[Murray Fredericks]

Originally Posted by Steve House

When recording your dialogue, though, you don't want ANY ambiance intruding into the recording if you can help it, hence none of your stereo recording options make any sense to me if you're talking about dialogue.

Thanks Steve and John - all very useful!

Steve,

being a one man band but after the highest quality I can produce alone, I assumed that if I chose a 30/60 - or after John's suggestion 30/50 setup, I could leave the kit setup and plugged in for the duration of the shoot (many weeks) and just 'switch it on' for ambient AND dialogue. Then in post the sound designer could just grab the sound from one of the mics in the setup for dialogue mono?

Once again this may be a naive question, but I am assuming a 30/50 setup would allow me to hear the stereo sound in the mix but record to 2 channels allowing the guys in post to take the dialogue as mono form just one channel for the final edit?

Cheers

Murray

[Murray Fredericks]

One further, but very important question...

Is there any reason to suspect that a 30/40, 30/50 or 30/60 stereo setup would be better in extreme conditions (freezing dry snow only - not rain or damp) than just going ahead with a 416?

Murray

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

I am assuming a 30/50 setup would allow me to hear the stereo sound in the mix but record to 2 channels allowing the guys in post to take the dialogue as mono form just one channel for the final edit?

It's MS so you will need an MS decoder in the monitoring chain to hear stereo - otherwise you will just hear mid on the left and side on the right.

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

One further, but very important question...

Is there any reason to suspect that a 30/40, 30/50 or 30/60 stereo setup would be better in extreme conditions (freezing dry snow only - not rain or damp) than just going ahead with a 416?

These are all RF condenser mics and so will work extremely well under nasty conditions (Craig Vier took an MKH 30/40 rig to Antarctica for a six-months stint with the Antarctic Survey a couple of years ago with great success).

But the 416 is marginally better as it does not have an active front plate like the others - but any of these are vastly better than a non-RF condenser and the symmetrical capsule mics work very well in nasty conditions.

I hope this helps.

[Murray Fredericks]

My sound guys have said they don't mind the idea of grabbing the 'mid' from a 30/50 or 30/60 setup.

The only question was about the polarity of the mid (mkh 50 or 60) as compared with say a 416 for more distant dialogue?

Any opinions?

Thanks

Murray

[Steve House]

What do you mean by the polarity? Are you talking about the polar pattern or are you talking about the phase of the signal.

[Murray Fredericks]

Sorry - polar pattern

Mind in ten places at once right now :)

Murray

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by Murray Fredericks

My sound guys have said they don't mind the idea of grabbing the 'mid' from a 30/50 or 30/60 set-up.

The only question was about the polarity (polar-pattern)of the mid (mkh 50 or 60) as compared with say a 416 for more distant dialogue?

Any opinions?

The MKH 60 and the MKH 416 have, basically, the same polar-pattern. The 60 is really the new "replacement" for the 416 - it's quieter and better. The 416 remains because many people like it and continue to buy it.

The MKH 50 has the same pattern as the 60 does at low frequencies. But as it does not have an interference tube, it keeps the same pattern all the way up and does not get more directional as frequency rises. But it does work very well in MS without the off-axis anomalies that happen when using an interference tube mic. for the mid.

I hope this helps.

[David Aliperti]

I have a 416 with its own windshield and a mkh 40-30 with the own bigger rycote windshield, but this is going to be my scenario, I have to climb on a vulcano crater so just with recorder and one boom, i thought to bring my 416 with 30 and in post choosing the only 416 for dialogue and for any effects to use the combination 416 30 as decoded ms stereo.
how this sound for you.

[John Willett]

Originally Posted by David Aliperti

I have a 416 with its own windshield and a mkh 40-30 with the own bigger rycote windshield, but this is going to be my scenario, I have to climb on a vulcano crater so just with recorder and one boom, i thought to bring my 416 with 30 and in post choosing the only 416 for dialogue and for any effects to use the combination 416 30 as decoded ms stereo.
how this sound for you.

This is fine, as long as you use a stereo windshield and do not try and stuff the MKH 30 into the 416's windshield.

The 30 would be too near the edge with not enough wind protection.