AT4050 vs. AKG 300B/CK93 for Studio

Dan Brockett · December 29th, 2009, 11:21 AM

Hmphh...Sanken CMC641. I didn't know that they had partnered for this latest mic. My error ;-)

And yes, agree with Steve, a large diaphragm studio condenser like the TLM103 would be a terrible boom mic for out of frame, it needs to be positioned about 8-12" from the mouth of the talent to sound good.

You can mess with the ATs or AKGs but if you want the best and to buy just once, I would buy the Schoeps too. It is an outstanding mic and is an industry standard for a reason. Also, once you buy one, you are done, there is nothing else to aspire to for a cardioid as far as I am concerned although I too like the MKH-50. It comes down between accuracy (the Schoeps) vs. impact (the Sennheiser). I always thought that the MKH-50 would be the ultimate VO mic for action movies, it sounds big, loud and exciting. The CMC641 sounds like reality and reality is not always that exciting sounding. Ah heck, buy them both, then you can use whatever the situation calls for.

Dan

Jon Vincent · December 29th, 2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

Ah heck, buy them both, then you can use whatever the situation calls for.

Dan

Okay Dan, let me get you the number for my accountant, you and he can talk about my needs... lol

So both mic's sound like they would be good options. I like the idea of a little bit more lively sound like the Sennheiser might give (some of these videos can be pretty dull), but I think I would be better doing something with that in post and just getting the cleanest sound possible, which sounds like the CMC641. I have spent a lot of time and money chasing 'upgrades' in other areas of my life and learned that you often and up at the same place and have just wasted resources along the way. Once I become rich and famous (heck, I'll settle for just rich) then I can try out a few other mics for some variety. Also sounds like the Schoeps will be good for a little off-axis recording - lowering the volume, but not coloring/changing it.

Been looking for some rental places here in the SF Bay Area, but not finding any that have the different mics I would like to check out.

Good to hear more about the large diaphragm mics. Used one for some vocals and acoustic guitar once, which sounded great, but I was up close and friendly with the mic during the recording. Was not sure how it would work on a boom.

David W. Jones · December 29th, 2009, 03:25 PM

Jon, the Schoeps Dan suggested is a great mic. The only reason I didn't suggest it over the MKH50 is that it can pick up a little more handling noise in the wrong hands via boom pole transmission. The MKH50 has a little more beef in the low end similar to the VO mics mentioned earlier. But either one would be great for the type of shots you were talking about.

All the Best!

Jay Massengill · December 30th, 2009, 02:33 PM

If you can afford the Schoeps or Sennheiser MKH then I would get one of those and be done with picking your primary mic as others have suggested. If you can't afford the best and must procede with recording immediately, then I can suggest the relatively new AT4021 small-diaphragm cardioid. It has very low self noise and will work well in a treated room on a fixed boom where there is some movement of the on-camera talent. Price ranges from $249 to $349 depending on where you look. Since everybody needs more than one mic, this AT won't be a waste even if you later upgrade to the best. I've been very pleased with mine and I think it represents a new performance/price point that sounds better than my AT4053a and pretty close to my AKG C480b/CK61 and CK63 (which have gone up and are closing on the $900 mark).
As always let us know how your project procedes and what can be learned from it.

Jon Vincent · December 30th, 2009, 02:51 PM

Thanks Jay, and everyone else. I am going to wait for one more check to come in and then grab the Schoeps. When I have refilled the bank account then I may try playing with a couple other mic's, but it seems that everyone is in agreement that if you can do it get the Schoeps.

Spending a lot of money on equipment to upgrade the studio, so would be stupid of me to try and cut corners on such a critical element as the audio.

Bill Davis · December 31st, 2009, 12:28 AM

Now that we all understand what you're ACTUALLY trying to do - we can actually help you.

You have gyrating amatures to record - check.
They have variable voice abilities - check
You want consistent and clear voice recordings - check.

The answer is to get a microphone positioned as close as humanly possible to the human pie-hole (technical term) that remains fixed with respect to said pie-hole regardless of the movement of the speaker.

You need a simple, headworn condensor vocal mic such as the Countryman E6. I'd go for the Omni model so neither the talent or the technicians can rig it very wrong.

Cost you about $350 retail. You can use it with a modest wireless rig like the Senheiser mid range units if you must, or make it absolutely bullet proof by running it via XLR cable direct to your recorder.

You will get superb recordings of whatever the teaching bozo (yet again, a technical term) sounds like. For better or worse.

Once positioned properly, it will stay at an exact distance to the sound source making your recordings consistent and clear. The proximity to the mouth verses the room will nearly GUARATNTEE you clear speech.

Next question?

Jon Vincent · January 3rd, 2010, 08:35 PM

Thanks again everyone. I'll definitely let you know what I end up doing. Looks like it's between the Schoeps and the MKH50.

One last question - for studio work would I need the cut-1 on the Schoeps for any reason? This will be a fixed boom. If so then I will have to go with the MKH50 due to cost.

Steve Oakley · January 5th, 2010, 11:15 PM

ya know schoeps makes a zillion mics / modules. a CMC 64 cardiod would be more forgiving in its pick up pattern if the on camera moves around a bit. it can also cover two people if they are close. its got a wider sweet spot, but the trade off is getting it closer to improve the s/n ratio. however with a treated space, this should be much less of an issue.

I'd rent both a 4 and 41 capsule, and do some tests, THEN buy. rental is cheap ;)

the sound of the mic exceptional.

Steve Oakley

Jon Vincent · January 6th, 2010, 05:42 PM

Thanks for the advice Steve. I'll look around a bit more and see if someone rents the Schoeps in the SF Bay Area - so far no luck. Any advice on the cut-1? When would that be called for typically? Sorry if it's a dumb question ;)

BTW - Thanks for the tip as well Bill. It's a great suggestion - and I will recommend it for our live events. Unfortunately the Madonna concert look is not what I am looking for in these videos. Really want the mic off their bodies (and heads) if possible.

I may seat these folks to keep movement down to a minimum, but that can also make the video dull.

Jon Vincent · January 7th, 2010, 09:39 PM

Okay, went with the Schoeps and an MK4 capsule. Could not find any place to rent so finally just picked the pattern that I felt best met our needs based on the specs. To be honest this mic will blow away our K6/ME66 combo so I am sure I will be very happy. Actually found a place right down the street that sold them for $300 less than BH - so that was nice.

Never heard from anyone regarding the cut-1, so I am praying I won't need it. Given the environment I think we should be okay. Anyway, I'll let everyone know how it works out.

Now, time tostart posting questions about editing, lighting, and HD workflow :)

Steve House · January 8th, 2010, 06:13 AM

The Cut-1 is to reduce low-frequency wind and handling noise. You can get nearly the same effect by engaging the low-cut filter on the mixer input you connect the mic to. The advantage of having the filter in the mic is that in high-noise environments it is possible for infra-sonics to cause the capsule to drive the mic's internal pre-amplifer to clipping, thus putting the cut-1 filter between them is more effective. But as you say, it doesn't sound like that's going to be your situation. You do need a good shock mount, however, even if you're putting the mic on a fixed boom - it's sensitive enough that it can still pickup vibrations such as from passing traffic or footsteps in the room traveling up the mic stand. I find the Rycote Invision mounts to be a very good solution and quite cost effective. Many users of the notoriously sensitive to handling noise CMC641 find that an Invision on a hand-held boompole reduces the vibration to such an extent that they've been able to dispense with the cut-1 even for location recording where it was needed in order to eliminate the residual handling noise making it through other types of shockmounts.

Jon Vincent · January 8th, 2010, 01:43 PM

Thanks again Steve. I appreciate the explanation. That's pretty much what I thought the cut-1 would do, but I am such a neophyte at this, better to ask and be sure :)

Yeah been reading how everyone is so happy with that Invision mount. It's deceiving looking at it, would not think it would be as effective as it is. Can't judge a book by the cover and all I guess... Sounds like a good investment to replace the garbage shock mount I'm using now.

Thx again for the help everyone. Now to figure out this ex1r and some chroma key lighting issues!

December 29th, 2009, 03:25 PM	#18
David W. Jones Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Little Rock Posts: 1,383	Jon, the Schoeps Dan suggested is a great mic. The only reason I didn't suggest it over the MKH50 is that it can pick up a little more handling noise in the wrong hands via boom pole transmission. The MKH50 has a little more beef in the low end similar to the VO mics mentioned earlier. But either one would be great for the type of shots you were talking about. All the Best! __________________ David W. Jones www.joneshdfilms.com

January 3rd, 2010, 08:35 PM	#22
Jon Vincent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Emeryville, CA Posts: 34	Thanks again everyone. I'll definitely let you know what I end up doing. Looks like it's between the Schoeps and the MKH50. One last question - for studio work would I need the cut-1 on the Schoeps for any reason? This will be a fixed boom. If so then I will have to go with the MKH50 due to cost. Last edited by Jon Vincent; January 4th, 2010 at 11:23 AM.

January 8th, 2010, 06:13 AM	#26
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	The Cut-1 is to reduce low-frequency wind and handling noise. You can get nearly the same effect by engaging the low-cut filter on the mixer input you connect the mic to. The advantage of having the filter in the mic is that in high-noise environments it is possible for infra-sonics to cause the capsule to drive the mic's internal pre-amplifer to clipping, thus putting the cut-1 filter between them is more effective. But as you say, it doesn't sound like that's going to be your situation. You do need a good shock mount, however, even if you're putting the mic on a fixed boom - it's sensitive enough that it can still pickup vibrations such as from passing traffic or footsteps in the room traveling up the mic stand. I find the Rycote Invision mounts to be a very good solution and quite cost effective. Many users of the notoriously sensitive to handling noise CMC641 find that an Invision on a hand-held boompole reduces the vibration to such an extent that they've been able to dispense with the cut-1 even for location recording where it was needed in order to eliminate the residual handling noise making it through other types of shockmounts. __________________ Good news, Cousins! This week's chocolate ration is 15 grams!

December 29th, 2009, 11:21 AM	#16
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	Hmphh...Sanken CMC641. I didn't know that they had partnered for this latest mic. My error ;-) And yes, agree with Steve, a large diaphragm studio condenser like the TLM103 would be a terrible boom mic for out of frame, it needs to be positioned about 8-12" from the mouth of the talent to sound good. You can mess with the ATs or AKGs but if you want the best and to buy just once, I would buy the Schoeps too. It is an outstanding mic and is an industry standard for a reason. Also, once you buy one, you are done, there is nothing else to aspire to for a cardioid as far as I am concerned although I too like the MKH-50. It comes down between accuracy (the Schoeps) vs. impact (the Sennheiser). I always thought that the MKH-50 would be the ultimate VO mic for action movies, it sounds big, loud and exciting. The CMC641 sounds like reality and reality is not always that exciting sounding. Ah heck, buy them both, then you can use whatever the situation calls for. Dan

December 30th, 2009, 02:33 PM	#19
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	If you can afford the Schoeps or Sennheiser MKH then I would get one of those and be done with picking your primary mic as others have suggested. If you can't afford the best and must procede with recording immediately, then I can suggest the relatively new AT4021 small-diaphragm cardioid. It has very low self noise and will work well in a treated room on a fixed boom where there is some movement of the on-camera talent. Price ranges from $249 to $349 depending on where you look. Since everybody needs more than one mic, this AT won't be a waste even if you later upgrade to the best. I've been very pleased with mine and I think it represents a new performance/price point that sounds better than my AT4053a and pretty close to my AKG C480b/CK61 and CK63 (which have gone up and are closing on the $900 mark). As always let us know how your project procedes and what can be learned from it.

December 30th, 2009, 02:51 PM	#20
Jon Vincent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Emeryville, CA Posts: 34	Thanks Jay, and everyone else. I am going to wait for one more check to come in and then grab the Schoeps. When I have refilled the bank account then I may try playing with a couple other mic's, but it seems that everyone is in agreement that if you can do it get the Schoeps. Spending a lot of money on equipment to upgrade the studio, so would be stupid of me to try and cut corners on such a critical element as the audio.

December 31st, 2009, 12:28 AM	#21
Bill Davis Trustee Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ 85260 Posts: 1,538	Now that we all understand what you're ACTUALLY trying to do - we can actually help you. You have gyrating amatures to record - check. They have variable voice abilities - check You want consistent and clear voice recordings - check. The answer is to get a microphone positioned as close as humanly possible to the human pie-hole (technical term) that remains fixed with respect to said pie-hole regardless of the movement of the speaker. You need a simple, headworn condensor vocal mic such as the Countryman E6. I'd go for the Omni model so neither the talent or the technicians can rig it very wrong. Cost you about $350 retail. You can use it with a modest wireless rig like the Senheiser mid range units if you must, or make it absolutely bullet proof by running it via XLR cable direct to your recorder. You will get superb recordings of whatever the teaching bozo (yet again, a technical term) sounds like. For better or worse. Once positioned properly, it will stay at an exact distance to the sound source making your recordings consistent and clear. The proximity to the mouth verses the room will nearly GUARATNTEE you clear speech. Next question?

January 5th, 2010, 11:15 PM	#23
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	ya know schoeps makes a zillion mics / modules. a CMC 64 cardiod would be more forgiving in its pick up pattern if the on camera moves around a bit. it can also cover two people if they are close. its got a wider sweet spot, but the trade off is getting it closer to improve the s/n ratio. however with a treated space, this should be much less of an issue. I'd rent both a 4 and 41 capsule, and do some tests, THEN buy. rental is cheap ;) the sound of the mic exceptional. Steve Oakley

January 6th, 2010, 05:42 PM	#24
Jon Vincent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Emeryville, CA Posts: 34	Thanks for the advice Steve. I'll look around a bit more and see if someone rents the Schoeps in the SF Bay Area - so far no luck. Any advice on the cut-1? When would that be called for typically? Sorry if it's a dumb question ;) BTW - Thanks for the tip as well Bill. It's a great suggestion - and I will recommend it for our live events. Unfortunately the Madonna concert look is not what I am looking for in these videos. Really want the mic off their bodies (and heads) if possible. I may seat these folks to keep movement down to a minimum, but that can also make the video dull.

January 7th, 2010, 09:39 PM	#25
Jon Vincent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Emeryville, CA Posts: 34	Okay, went with the Schoeps and an MK4 capsule. Could not find any place to rent so finally just picked the pattern that I felt best met our needs based on the specs. To be honest this mic will blow away our K6/ME66 combo so I am sure I will be very happy. Actually found a place right down the street that sold them for $300 less than BH - so that was nice. Never heard from anyone regarding the cut-1, so I am praying I won't need it. Given the environment I think we should be okay. Anyway, I'll let everyone know how it works out. Now, time tostart posting questions about editing, lighting, and HD workflow :)

January 8th, 2010, 01:43 PM	#27
Jon Vincent Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Emeryville, CA Posts: 34	Thanks again Steve. I appreciate the explanation. That's pretty much what I thought the cut-1 would do, but I am such a neophyte at this, better to ask and be sure :) Yeah been reading how everyone is so happy with that Invision mount. It's deceiving looking at it, would not think it would be as effective as it is. Can't judge a book by the cover and all I guess... Sounds like a good investment to replace the garbage shock mount I'm using now. Thx again for the help everyone. Now to figure out this ex1r and some chroma key lighting issues!