Having trouble understanding an audio concept at DVinfo.net

Dave Largent · May 8th, 2005, 04:39 AM

I feel this kind of seems like a stupid question
but I am confused so I'll ask.
I've recorded some loud bands. My mikes are
high sensitivity so I've used attenuators
to keep the cam pre's from overloading.
The result is that I can keep the pre's in
check, and the band music sounds alright,
but because of the high attenuation, crowd
noise is almost non-existant. You see the
crowd members dancing and yelling but all you
hear is the band.
Would I be better using a mike that is low
sensitivity (and not needing the attenuator)?
I would think: a high sensitivity mike with
an attenuator should equal a low sensitivity
mike without an attenuator.
But, I have also noticed that when you use
a low sensitivity mike (such as a dynamic)
for spoken word around a loud background,
that the background is much quieter
in comparison to the spoken word.
Ultimately, my qusetion is: would I get more
crowd noise by going with a low sensitivity mike
and not using the attenuator, than going
with the high-sensitivity mike with an attenuator?

Ron Johnson · May 8th, 2005, 12:43 PM

Something I've done in this situation is to use a mixer with a secondary mic set-up. So, at the end of a song I increase the input from the secondary "crowd" mics. This is okay - at elast yo get some crowd ambience and you can always mix one segment into another in post. However, what I've decided is that I would really prefer to have another person dedicated to the audio so that I can concetrate on the video.

Also, if possible, once you have a mixer (and reasonable performing mixers are available under $100), tyr getting a direct feed from the sound board.

Chad Solo · May 8th, 2005, 06:05 PM

I like to ask a question I have a Sony FX1 HDV am I able to use the direct feed from the sound board with this camera and if so what would I need? I have been shooting my Nephews band allot and someone asked me the other night If I can do that a direct feed to my camera. Thank's for any info you all can give.

Chad

Ty Ford · May 8th, 2005, 07:35 PM

Move the mics so as to include the audiencce.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Glenn Chan · May 8th, 2005, 08:34 PM

Quote:

I feel this kind of seems like a stupid question
but I am confused so I'll ask.
I've recorded some loud bands. My mikes are
high sensitivity so I've used attenuators
to keep the cam pre's from overloading.
The result is that I can keep the pre's in
check, and the band music sounds alright,
but because of the high attenuation, crowd
noise is almost non-existant. You see the
crowd members dancing and yelling but all you
hear is the band.

What you should be concerned about is the volume ratio between the audience and the live band. Attenuation does not affect this ratio. Recording either noise improperly can affect the ratio (i.e. too loud = distortion/clipping, too low = noise which can bury the audience sound) but that more or less is a seperate issue.

As Ty suggests, if you move the microphone closer to the audience then you will pick up more audience while the live band volume remains the same. This helps even out the volume ratio between the two.

In post production, you can affect the ratio between the two if you apply compression. Compressors are hard to explain, but more or less it's a good idea to try to get the right balance between audience and band when you shoot.

Quote:

But, I have also noticed that when you use
a low sensitivity mike (such as a dynamic)
for spoken word around a loud background,
that the background is much quieter
in comparison to the spoken word.

This is probably the inverse square law at work. The closer you get to the sound source with a microphone, the louder it gets.

David Ennis · May 8th, 2005, 09:27 PM

It seems that a shotgun with good rear rejection like the AT4073 aimed away from the band/loudspeakers and toward the audience should help.

Jeff Mack · May 12th, 2005, 11:44 AM

You really should record the audio off the sound board. That way you get the live mix already done and if the sound man lets you, add a crowd mic. The audio should not go to tape but into a seperate device such as a sound card or external cd recorder. That way, you can add this audio to the timeline andedit from within. Once I sync up the imprted audio with the tapes audio, I either mute the tapes audio or totally delete it and replace it with the new audio.

May 8th, 2005, 04:39 AM	#1
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	Having trouble understanding an audio concept I feel this kind of seems like a stupid question but I am confused so I'll ask. I've recorded some loud bands. My mikes are high sensitivity so I've used attenuators to keep the cam pre's from overloading. The result is that I can keep the pre's in check, and the band music sounds alright, but because of the high attenuation, crowd noise is almost non-existant. You see the crowd members dancing and yelling but all you hear is the band. Would I be better using a mike that is low sensitivity (and not needing the attenuator)? I would think: a high sensitivity mike with an attenuator should equal a low sensitivity mike without an attenuator. But, I have also noticed that when you use a low sensitivity mike (such as a dynamic) for spoken word around a loud background, that the background is much quieter in comparison to the spoken word. Ultimately, my qusetion is: would I get more crowd noise by going with a low sensitivity mike and not using the attenuator, than going with the high-sensitivity mike with an attenuator?

May 8th, 2005, 12:43 PM	#2
Ron Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 103	Something I've done in this situation is to use a mixer with a secondary mic set-up. So, at the end of a song I increase the input from the secondary "crowd" mics. This is okay - at elast yo get some crowd ambience and you can always mix one segment into another in post. However, what I've decided is that I would really prefer to have another person dedicated to the audio so that I can concetrate on the video. Also, if possible, once you have a mixer (and reasonable performing mixers are available under $100), tyr getting a direct feed from the sound board. __________________ Ron Johnson Portland, OR

May 8th, 2005, 07:35 PM	#4
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Move the mics so as to include the audiencce. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

May 8th, 2005, 09:27 PM	#6
David Ennis Fred Retread Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 1,227	It seems that a shotgun with good rear rejection like the AT4073 aimed away from the band/loudspeakers and toward the audience should help. __________________ "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence..." - Calvin Coolidge "My brain is wired to want to know how other things are wired." - Me

May 8th, 2005, 06:05 PM	#3
Chad Solo Regular Crew Join Date: May 2004 Location: St.Petersburg,Fla Posts: 162	I like to ask a question I have a Sony FX1 HDV am I able to use the direct feed from the sound board with this camera and if so what would I need? I have been shooting my Nephews band allot and someone asked me the other night If I can do that a direct feed to my camera. Thank's for any info you all can give. Chad

May 12th, 2005, 11:44 AM	#7
Jeff Mack Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: McKinney, TX Posts: 195	You really should record the audio off the sound board. That way you get the live mix already done and if the sound man lets you, add a crowd mic. The audio should not go to tape but into a seperate device such as a sound card or external cd recorder. That way, you can add this audio to the timeline andedit from within. Once I sync up the imprted audio with the tapes audio, I either mute the tapes audio or totally delete it and replace it with the new audio.