Recommend me a Boom Mic Please???

Ty Ford · June 6th, 2005, 08:14 AM

Excuse me gents, but all shotguns, as a byproduct of their mechanical design, exhibit nasty artifacts when used to shoot everyday interiors.

That's because all shotgun mics are much more omni directional at mid and low frequencies than at higher frequencies,

I started using shotguns for interiors because I didin't know any better. When I found good hypercardioids like the Sennheiser MKH 60 and Schoeps cmc641, my opinion changed and my sound got better.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Dave Largent · June 6th, 2005, 08:35 AM

So, Ty, are the hypercardioids immune to that hollow
sound?

Marco Leavitt · June 6th, 2005, 08:50 AM

Dave,
No, but they're better. Treating the room with sound blankets or other material is often still a good idea. There are also people who claim that some shotguns in some environments at some distances (that's a lot of variables) will attenuate enough reverb that they sound better than hypercardiods. It's hard to set a rule and have it always be true in every situation. I find this stuff kind of maddening, actually. I recently bought a Sanken CS3e and it sounds amazingly good indoors, but definitely not as natural as a good hypercardiod.

Ty Ford · June 6th, 2005, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Largent

So, Ty, are the hypercardioids immune to that hollow
sound?

There are limitations to every piece of gear.

Hypers are relatively immune, yes.

Bad rooms are bad rooms. Try recording in a racquetball court. That's a good example of the worst environment.

Hypers don't have the reach of a shotgun so you have to be closer; 12" to 18".

The Sennheiser MKH 60 and Schoeps cmc641 aren't cheap, but they sound quite nice. I prefer the Schoeps, but would go for the Sennheiser MKH 60 before any shotgun,

Ty Ford

Pete Wilie · June 6th, 2005, 09:27 AM

Ty,

I'm confused. It's probably a semantics problem.

Is a hypercardioid and a short shotgun the same thing?
And where does the "Line + Gradient" fit in the cardiod/hypercardiod/supercardiod/etc categories?

The Sennheiser MKH-60 is described as a "Super-Cardioid Short Shotgun Condenser Microphone" and as a "lightweight short gun microphone" by B&H and Sennheiser. So is it a "shotgun" or not?

When I look at the polar pattern for the Senn MKH-50, tht AT897, and the AT835b, they all look very similiar to me. Can someone please point to some specifications that indicate signficant differences among these mics?

Ty Ford · June 6th, 2005, 09:56 AM

Not the same. And yes, it is confusing. Forget the names. Let's make it as simple as it should be.

If the mic has a tube with slots in it (called an interference tube) that's the problem. That's where the wonky sound is created. No hypercardioid I've seen yet (Note: 'Yet') employs an interference tube.

The longer the interference tube, the more directional the higher frequencies and the wonkier the mids and lows.

Ther are a few exceptions. One Sanken has what looks like an interference tube but it's not hollow. It's jammed with three or four rectangular capsules. Interesting, but not either a hyper or a shotgun, even though it looks like a shotgun. A good hyper beats it.

Not all hypers are the same. The top are Sennhieser MKH 50 and Schoeps cmc641. I can definitely hear the difference between them and lesser hypers. I prefer the Schoeps.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Pete Wilie · June 6th, 2005, 10:30 AM

Ty,

Thanks but I'm still confused.

When I look at the MKH 60 it looks like it has slots in it. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing...

But then you have recommended both the MKH 50 and the MKH 60. Is one of these a typo, or do you recommend both?

Pete Wilie · June 6th, 2005, 11:14 AM

What do you pros think about the AT3031 for a indoor dialog/interview boom mic?

It sells for about $170 at B&H and seems to meet the criteria that Ty mentioned earlier. I have seen it recommended a few times. From the lists I have seen it appears to be about in the middle of price/quality.

I know it's not a good as the high-end Sennheiser and Schoeps, but they don't fit my buget right now. Maybe later...

Glenn Chan · June 6th, 2005, 12:11 PM

Example of shotgun (line gradient design) versus hypercardioid:
http://www.dvfreelancer.com/media/be...ktavaRight.MPG

This is what I hear:
The shotgun sounds hollow/weird/artificial.
The hypercardioid doesn't sound like that. However, it picks up a little more of the room resonance, so you can hear that. Aesthetically, which you like better is up to you. I think most people would prefer the sound of the hypercardioid.

Other note: Shotguns better than the ME66 will exhibit the effect less. Money on a higher-end shotgun definitely buys you better quality. On hypercardioids, I don't think it's quite as true.
The ME66 may not be that good value when you compare it to the AT4073a.
The Oktava is considered to be good value. If you search the threads you'll find that some report it picks up more handling noise that other mics, and needs phantom power. So in that case, other hypercardioids may be a better buy.

Terminology:
When I say shotgun I mean a microphone that uses the line+gradient design. Some people use different terminology, which can be confusing.
MKH50 = hypercardioid, similar type of microphone as the Schoeps CMC6/Mk41.
MKH60 = successor to the sennheiser 416, uses line+gradient design.

June 6th, 2005, 08:14 AM	#16
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Excuse me gents, but all shotguns, as a byproduct of their mechanical design, exhibit nasty artifacts when used to shoot everyday interiors. That's because all shotgun mics are much more omni directional at mid and low frequencies than at higher frequencies, I started using shotguns for interiors because I didin't know any better. When I found good hypercardioids like the Sennheiser MKH 60 and Schoeps cmc641, my opinion changed and my sound got better. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

June 6th, 2005, 09:27 AM	#20
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	Definition of Terms Ty, I'm confused. It's probably a semantics problem. Is a hypercardioid and a short shotgun the same thing? And where does the "Line + Gradient" fit in the cardiod/hypercardiod/supercardiod/etc categories? The Sennheiser MKH-60 is described as a "Super-Cardioid Short Shotgun Condenser Microphone" and as a "lightweight short gun microphone" by B&H and Sennheiser. So is it a "shotgun" or not? When I look at the polar pattern for the Senn MKH-50, tht AT897, and the AT835b, they all look very similiar to me. Can someone please point to some specifications that indicate signficant differences among these mics?

June 6th, 2005, 09:56 AM	#21
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Not the same. And yes, it is confusing. Forget the names. Let's make it as simple as it should be. If the mic has a tube with slots in it (called an interference tube) that's the problem. That's where the wonky sound is created. No hypercardioid I've seen yet (Note: 'Yet') employs an interference tube. The longer the interference tube, the more directional the higher frequencies and the wonkier the mids and lows. Ther are a few exceptions. One Sanken has what looks like an interference tube but it's not hollow. It's jammed with three or four rectangular capsules. Interesting, but not either a hyper or a shotgun, even though it looks like a shotgun. A good hyper beats it. Not all hypers are the same. The top are Sennhieser MKH 50 and Schoeps cmc641. I can definitely hear the difference between them and lesser hypers. I prefer the Schoeps. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

June 6th, 2005, 11:14 AM	#23
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	What about the AT3031? What do you pros think about the AT3031 for a indoor dialog/interview boom mic? It sells for about $170 at B&H and seems to meet the criteria that Ty mentioned earlier. I have seen it recommended a few times. From the lists I have seen it appears to be about in the middle of price/quality. I know it's not a good as the high-end Sennheiser and Schoeps, but they don't fit my buget right now. Maybe later...

June 6th, 2005, 08:35 AM	#17
Dave Largent Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,483	So, Ty, are the hypercardioids immune to that hollow sound?

June 6th, 2005, 08:50 AM	#18
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Dave, No, but they're better. Treating the room with sound blankets or other material is often still a good idea. There are also people who claim that some shotguns in some environments at some distances (that's a lot of variables) will attenuate enough reverb that they sound better than hypercardiods. It's hard to set a rule and have it always be true in every situation. I find this stuff kind of maddening, actually. I recently bought a Sanken CS3e and it sounds amazingly good indoors, but definitely not as natural as a good hypercardiod.

June 6th, 2005, 10:30 AM	#22
Pete Wilie Major Player Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 331	Ty, Thanks but I'm still confused. When I look at the MKH 60 it looks like it has slots in it. Maybe I'm not looking at the right thing... But then you have recommended both the MKH 50 and the MKH 60. Is one of these a typo, or do you recommend both?

June 6th, 2005, 12:11 PM	#24
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Example of shotgun (line gradient design) versus hypercardioid: http://www.dvfreelancer.com/media/be...ktavaRight.MPG This is what I hear: The shotgun sounds hollow/weird/artificial. The hypercardioid doesn't sound like that. However, it picks up a little more of the room resonance, so you can hear that. Aesthetically, which you like better is up to you. I think most people would prefer the sound of the hypercardioid. Other note: Shotguns better than the ME66 will exhibit the effect less. Money on a higher-end shotgun definitely buys you better quality. On hypercardioids, I don't think it's quite as true. The ME66 may not be that good value when you compare it to the AT4073a. The Oktava is considered to be good value. If you search the threads you'll find that some report it picks up more handling noise that other mics, and needs phantom power. So in that case, other hypercardioids may be a better buy. Terminology: When I say shotgun I mean a microphone that uses the line+gradient design. Some people use different terminology, which can be confusing. MKH50 = hypercardioid, similar type of microphone as the Schoeps CMC6/Mk41. MKH60 = successor to the sennheiser 416, uses line+gradient design.