Dat, iPod, MP3 or Minidisc to capture sounds?

Alex Gee · March 29th, 2005, 07:25 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : . the marantz is the pocket recorder I've been waiting for , for 30 years. kurth -->>>
You have big pockets then? :)

Arne Johnson · March 29th, 2005, 07:39 PM

No, that's fine...You can do the same thing with the files taken from the minidiscs too, or a hard drive...Some people (like me) want to keep the actual recording medium archived as backup, as they are often matched up with a video tape, and/or you never know what'll happen to those digital files. I was just making the point that if you do that with the Compact Flash, it can get expensive.

Arne Johnson · March 29th, 2005, 07:44 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : ... and why would anyone think of archiving the pmd 660 cf recording on cf cards. You'd archive it like all dig data. kurth -->>>

Well, I don't know how you work, but we archive all our miniDV tapes, never get rid of anything or tape over anything. That digital data stays on the tapes. Same principle. I'm sure we'll all let go of this kind of work flow once everything is on P2 cards and the like, and it's all more affordable, but for now...

Marco Leavitt · March 29th, 2005, 07:57 PM

That's how we do it too -- one disc, one tape. Always. If I was backing up my audio from a hard disc recorder, I would make a point of burning two copies, and I'd still be a little worried about it. That's kind of a lot to store, and as Arne points out, increases potential labeling mishaps. Still a workable system though. I haven't heard any complaints from people doing it that way. Minidiscs though, are really hardy in their little plastic cases.

Kurth Bousman · March 30th, 2005, 11:07 AM

>>>Well, I don't know how you work, but we archive all our miniDV tapes<<<
Arne , that's for minidv tapes. If we were talking about dat , then of course I'd archive the tapes. But we're talking about how to save audio data recorded on cf cards cheaply. Well obviously I don't own a marantz yet , and contrary to anothers post , I don't have deep pockets so I would do it just how I archive all of my photo work which is recorded on the same media. You never hear of photograhers saving their photos on cf cards. I , personally, keep them on my original hd that they were first downloaded on , then I burn a cd ( you could burn to dvd - I just save my dvd discs for making dvds ) , then I have 2 lacie firewires ( 120 g ) that are both backups. So I end up with the files in 4 separate places . I haven't lost a photo yet but there's always a " gods will " situation. I think the workflow is about the same for audio recorded on cf but since I haven't done it yet , it's all speculation based on my photo workflow. Hope we can get some real handson for the pmd660 ( or the 650 which should have the same issues ) thanks - Kurth

Glenn Chan · March 30th, 2005, 01:28 PM

I wouldn't necessarily trust CDs that much. Some CDs and DVDs can degrade very fast. Poor quality media can just degrade by itself.

Good quality media stored in sunlight can also degrade quickly.

Also, some CDs cases will (ironically) scratch up the CD.

If you want tips on using CDs and DVDs for archival, check out
http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/caref...uide.pdf<br />

At least with digital, you can losslessly make multiple backups of your media, so you can keep files kicking around your hard drive and have backups on DVDs.

Alex Gee · March 30th, 2005, 07:47 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : >>>, and contrary to anothers post , I don't have deep pockets so I would do it just how I archive all of my photo work which is recorded on the same media. -->>>
Kurth, I wasn't referring to the cost of media but the physical size of the 660 which is just a tad large to be called pocket size. :)

Kurth Bousman · March 30th, 2005, 08:12 PM

Alex yeh, sorry - i reread your post and just misread the first pass. But I do have pockets big enough for the 660- I swear ! In the 70's and 80's , living in Austin , I had a brand new sony portable cassette recorder that I used to take to clubs and record the bands. It was about the same size and easily concealable. My recordings would have been alot better w/this marantz. And about the cd archiving problem - I totally agree. If it's important data- you should reburn every 2 years or so. Other than the archiving problem - I think cf cards are the perfect media. I think you can download a cf card like 50-100 thousand times. You sure can't do that to tape or minidisc. thanks Kurth

Steve House · March 30th, 2005, 09:00 PM

But the cost of CF cards could be considerable. If you're going on the road for several weeks and need to record several hours of audio a day at highest quality, unless you take your laptop with you to burn your CDs every night you're going to have to carry along several kilobucks worth of CF cards. A 1 gig card at about $100 - $150 or more holds 1.5 hours of PCM audio. A 74 min miniDisc holds just a little less than that for whopping $2.00 for the media. If you figure you'll bring home 15 hours of audio from your road trip away from the computer you use to burn your CDs, that means your media cost is going to be $1000 - $1500 for the CF recorder versus $25 for miniDisc. Granted you can resuse the cards once you've transferred the audio to CD so perhaps they really don't count as expendable media as such, still it means your recorder "kit" is more like $2000 for the recorder plus enough cards than $500 for the recorder alone and suddenly the $1250 cost of a pro level miniDisc starts to look like a bargain in comparison.

Steve

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 30th, 2005, 09:09 PM

Yes. This same kind of conversation is going on about the new Panasonic prosumer HD camera that records onto solid state media. Everybody says solid state is going to be inexpensive someday but right now it is still pretty steep. The great thing about the Marantz is that you might be able to pop hard disks into the slot, and that is probably far less expensive --if somewhat more delicate-- than solid state cards. I think you can buy 5 GB microdrives for around US$200.

Steve House · March 30th, 2005, 10:14 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : Yes. This same kind of conversation is going on about the new Panasonic prosumer HD camera that records onto solid state media. Everybody says solid state is going to be inexpensive someday but right now it is still pretty steep. The great thing about the Marantz is that you might be able to pop hard disks into the slot, and that is probably far less expensive --if somewhat more delicate-- than solid state cards. I think you can buy 5 GB microdrives for around US$200. -->>>

Got curious and checked pricing on the B&H web site. Putting together professional kits with enough memory or media to allow approximately 10 hours recording time as uncompressed PCM wave format before haveing to move the files to CD or hard drive. Pro level recorders accepting balanced mikes with decent monitoring and metering, defeatable SCMS. Thinking 10 hours recording time as a nice safe number for an all-day event with some contingency reserve or for a documentary in the field rafting the Grand Canyon for several days, that sort of thing.

Rough prices ...
HHB MDP550 minidisk recorder + pack of 10 discs ~ $1520
Marantz PMD660 CF recorder + 7 1 gig cards ~ $1300
Marantz PMD670 CF recorder + 7 1 gig cards ~ $1575

So close as to be essentially the same cost.

Steve

Arne Johnson · March 30th, 2005, 11:12 PM

NH800 Minidisc recorder + Mixpad 4 + 10 1 gig discs = $350

:)

Arne

Alex Gee · March 30th, 2005, 11:33 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve House : But the cost of CF cards could be considerable. If you're going on the road for several weeks and need to record several hours of audio a day at highest quality, unless you take your laptop with you to burn your CDs every night you're going to have to carry along several kilobucks worth of CF cards. -->>>

If I'm going away for such a period then I'll certainly take a laptop and maybe an external hard drive along. Sure you could take a pocket full of CF cards but why would you? Let's not create a problem where there is none.

Marco Leavitt · March 31st, 2005, 07:28 AM

"I think cf cards are the perfect media. I think you can download a cf card like 50-100 thousand times. You sure can't do that to tape or minidisc."

Actually, a minidisc can in theory be rewritten a million times. Don't know how realistic that is, but I've never had one fail.

http://www.minidisc.org/faq_sec_3.html#_q10

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 31st, 2005, 09:43 AM

Here is some info about the camera:

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

March 30th, 2005, 09:09 PM	#40
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Yes. This same kind of conversation is going on about the new Panasonic prosumer HD camera that records onto solid state media. Everybody says solid state is going to be inexpensive someday but right now it is still pretty steep. The great thing about the Marantz is that you might be able to pop hard disks into the slot, and that is probably far less expensive --if somewhat more delicate-- than solid state cards. I think you can buy 5 GB microdrives for around US$200. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 31st, 2005, 09:43 AM	#45
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	The camera... Here is some info about the camera: http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031 __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 29th, 2005, 07:25 PM	#31
Alex Gee Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cowell South Australia Posts: 32	<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : . the marantz is the pocket recorder I've been waiting for , for 30 years. kurth -->>> You have big pockets then? :)

March 29th, 2005, 07:39 PM	#32
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	No, that's fine...You can do the same thing with the files taken from the minidiscs too, or a hard drive...Some people (like me) want to keep the actual recording medium archived as backup, as they are often matched up with a video tape, and/or you never know what'll happen to those digital files. I was just making the point that if you do that with the Compact Flash, it can get expensive.

March 29th, 2005, 07:44 PM	#33
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : ... and why would anyone think of archiving the pmd 660 cf recording on cf cards. You'd archive it like all dig data. kurth -->>> Well, I don't know how you work, but we archive all our miniDV tapes, never get rid of anything or tape over anything. That digital data stays on the tapes. Same principle. I'm sure we'll all let go of this kind of work flow once everything is on P2 cards and the like, and it's all more affordable, but for now...

March 29th, 2005, 07:57 PM	#34
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	That's how we do it too -- one disc, one tape. Always. If I was backing up my audio from a hard disc recorder, I would make a point of burning two copies, and I'd still be a little worried about it. That's kind of a lot to store, and as Arne points out, increases potential labeling mishaps. Still a workable system though. I haven't heard any complaints from people doing it that way. Minidiscs though, are really hardy in their little plastic cases.

March 30th, 2005, 11:07 AM	#35
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	>>>Well, I don't know how you work, but we archive all our miniDV tapes<<< Arne , that's for minidv tapes. If we were talking about dat , then of course I'd archive the tapes. But we're talking about how to save audio data recorded on cf cards cheaply. Well obviously I don't own a marantz yet , and contrary to anothers post , I don't have deep pockets so I would do it just how I archive all of my photo work which is recorded on the same media. You never hear of photograhers saving their photos on cf cards. I , personally, keep them on my original hd that they were first downloaded on , then I burn a cd ( you could burn to dvd - I just save my dvd discs for making dvds ) , then I have 2 lacie firewires ( 120 g ) that are both backups. So I end up with the files in 4 separate places . I haven't lost a photo yet but there's always a " gods will " situation. I think the workflow is about the same for audio recorded on cf but since I haven't done it yet , it's all speculation based on my photo workflow. Hope we can get some real handson for the pmd660 ( or the 650 which should have the same issues ) thanks - Kurth

March 30th, 2005, 01:28 PM	#36
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	I wouldn't necessarily trust CDs that much. Some CDs and DVDs can degrade very fast. Poor quality media can just degrade by itself. Good quality media stored in sunlight can also degrade quickly. Also, some CDs cases will (ironically) scratch up the CD. If you want tips on using CDs and DVDs for archival, check out http://www.itl.nist.gov/div895/caref...uide.pdf<br /> At least with digital, you can losslessly make multiple backups of your media, so you can keep files kicking around your hard drive and have backups on DVDs.

March 30th, 2005, 07:47 PM	#37
Alex Gee Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cowell South Australia Posts: 32	<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : >>>, and contrary to anothers post , I don't have deep pockets so I would do it just how I archive all of my photo work which is recorded on the same media. -->>> Kurth, I wasn't referring to the cost of media but the physical size of the 660 which is just a tad large to be called pocket size. :)

March 30th, 2005, 08:12 PM	#38
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	Alex yeh, sorry - i reread your post and just misread the first pass. But I do have pockets big enough for the 660- I swear ! In the 70's and 80's , living in Austin , I had a brand new sony portable cassette recorder that I used to take to clubs and record the bands. It was about the same size and easily concealable. My recordings would have been alot better w/this marantz. And about the cd archiving problem - I totally agree. If it's important data- you should reburn every 2 years or so. Other than the archiving problem - I think cf cards are the perfect media. I think you can download a cf card like 50-100 thousand times. You sure can't do that to tape or minidisc. thanks Kurth

March 30th, 2005, 09:00 PM	#39
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	But the cost of CF cards could be considerable. If you're going on the road for several weeks and need to record several hours of audio a day at highest quality, unless you take your laptop with you to burn your CDs every night you're going to have to carry along several kilobucks worth of CF cards. A 1 gig card at about $100 - $150 or more holds 1.5 hours of PCM audio. A 74 min miniDisc holds just a little less than that for whopping $2.00 for the media. If you figure you'll bring home 15 hours of audio from your road trip away from the computer you use to burn your CDs, that means your media cost is going to be $1000 - $1500 for the CF recorder versus $25 for miniDisc. Granted you can resuse the cards once you've transferred the audio to CD so perhaps they really don't count as expendable media as such, still it means your recorder "kit" is more like $2000 for the recorder plus enough cards than $500 for the recorder alone and suddenly the $1250 cost of a pro level miniDisc starts to look like a bargain in comparison. Steve

March 30th, 2005, 10:14 PM	#41
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : Yes. This same kind of conversation is going on about the new Panasonic prosumer HD camera that records onto solid state media. Everybody says solid state is going to be inexpensive someday but right now it is still pretty steep. The great thing about the Marantz is that you might be able to pop hard disks into the slot, and that is probably far less expensive --if somewhat more delicate-- than solid state cards. I think you can buy 5 GB microdrives for around US$200. -->>> Got curious and checked pricing on the B&H web site. Putting together professional kits with enough memory or media to allow approximately 10 hours recording time as uncompressed PCM wave format before haveing to move the files to CD or hard drive. Pro level recorders accepting balanced mikes with decent monitoring and metering, defeatable SCMS. Thinking 10 hours recording time as a nice safe number for an all-day event with some contingency reserve or for a documentary in the field rafting the Grand Canyon for several days, that sort of thing. Rough prices ... HHB MDP550 minidisk recorder + pack of 10 discs ~ $1520 Marantz PMD660 CF recorder + 7 1 gig cards ~ $1300 Marantz PMD670 CF recorder + 7 1 gig cards ~ $1575 So close as to be essentially the same cost. Steve

March 30th, 2005, 11:12 PM	#42
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	NH800 Minidisc recorder + Mixpad 4 + 10 1 gig discs = $350 :) Arne

March 30th, 2005, 11:33 PM	#43
Alex Gee Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cowell South Australia Posts: 32	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve House : But the cost of CF cards could be considerable. If you're going on the road for several weeks and need to record several hours of audio a day at highest quality, unless you take your laptop with you to burn your CDs every night you're going to have to carry along several kilobucks worth of CF cards. -->>> If I'm going away for such a period then I'll certainly take a laptop and maybe an external hard drive along. Sure you could take a pocket full of CF cards but why would you? Let's not create a problem where there is none.

March 31st, 2005, 07:28 AM	#44
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	"I think cf cards are the perfect media. I think you can download a cf card like 50-100 thousand times. You sure can't do that to tape or minidisc." Actually, a minidisc can in theory be rewritten a million times. Don't know how realistic that is, but I've never had one fail. http://www.minidisc.org/faq_sec_3.html#_q10