Dat, iPod, MP3 or Minidisc to capture sounds?

Marco Leavitt · March 29th, 2005, 08:22 AM

Believe it or not, this arrangement was considered a huge step forward when Sony announced they would allow digital transfers on portable HiMD units. In the previous incarnation of minidisc, there was no way to do a digital transfer using a portable unit at all. Most people lived with analog transfers or bought more expensive desktop units with digital outputs (that's what we did). This kind of bullheadedness is what all but killed the format.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 29th, 2005, 10:26 AM

Here is the link for the new Marantz "walkman" CF recorder. Looks truly awesome. I had never seen something so small with Phantom power. Can even record Mp3 in real time!

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.a...9&SubCatID=180

Joe Carney · March 29th, 2005, 11:21 AM

Beachteks' DXA-10 is specifically desinged to hook up to portable recoreds (mini disk, iriver...) with preamps, dual xlr... uses 9 volt battery. That would solve the volume level issues.

Marco Leavitt · March 29th, 2005, 11:58 AM

That Marantz recorder looks fantastic.

Arne Johnson · March 29th, 2005, 01:38 PM

In response to Steve, yes it's annoying...but that's not exactly what happens. you get one chance to digitally transfer the file, but an unlimited amount of chances to transfer using the line out. The sound quality drops some, but as pointed out by Marco in another thread, there've been tests done that show it's not catastrophic. If you're in a situation requiring absolute acoustic fidelity on which your whole professional reputation rests, then you're probably not using a minidisc recorder anyway. It's a guerilla workaround for those of us who don't have $500 to spend on that great Marantz recorder. Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. As a doc-maker, I have to archive my recordings, can't wipe them out, so it's a good solution. If I had the money, believe me, I'd use something else. But for $200 (the NHZ800), you can't do better. The sound is great, uncompressed, and it weighs less than my wallet.

Arne

Steve House · March 29th, 2005, 03:11 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : In response to Steve, yes it's annoying...but that's not exactly what happens. you get one chance to digitally transfer the file, but an unlimited amount of chances to transfer using the line out. The sound quality drops some, but as pointed out by Marco in another thread, there've been tests done that show it's not catastrophic. If you're in a situation requiring absolute acoustic fidelity on which your whole professional reputation rests, then you're probably not using a minidisc recorder anyway. It's a guerilla workaround for those of us who don't have $500 to spend on that great Marantz recorder. Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. As a doc-maker, I have to archive my recordings, can't wipe them out, so it's a good solution. If I had the money, believe me, I'd use something else. But for $200 (the NHZ800), you can't do better. The sound is great, uncompressed, and it weighs less than my wallet.

Arne -->>>

Okay now I'm getting confused. Though I'm a computer geek by profession my video production and sound recording experiences are way back in the analog days so bear with me - I've been reading up on SCMS copy protection since encountering this thread. Is that what we're talking about here? If so, let me see if I've got it straight. As I read the info I've found so far, it sounds like it deals with making multi-generation digital copies of a digital minidisc master. Let's say I'm using a minidisc recorder in the field to record wild sound or for double-system sync sound while filming with a DV camera. From what I've been reading, I could make a copy of that disc to another minidisc or a DAT tape but I then would not be able to take that copy and re-copy it to further digital generations. But I haven't read anything to suggest I can't use my original master and make multiple first generation digital copies off of it, I just can't subsequently copy the copies. Yet the post that I saw earlier seemed to suggest that you got one chance to copy that master disc digitally and then somehow it got locked so that it would only playback through the original recorder's (or another deck's) analog outputs from that point on. I confess that doesn't make a lot of sense to me - have I misunderstood?

By the way, was looking at some information on the (now discontinued) Marantz PMD650 professional minidisc recorder and it says that the copy protection can be disabled in the setup menus if one chooses.

Say I'm using a minidisc on a shoot to capture room tone & ambience, wild sound & FX, additional mikes on live music on location, additional voice sync tracks beyond the 2 or 4 recorded on the tape by the DV camera, or whatever. Or perhaps using it during post to master the narration tracks to go into the video. I then want to import the audio from the minidisc into the computer to use as media clips in Vegas/Sound Forge, Premiere Pro/Audition, Audacity or whatever for editing and sweetening, and then mixing it into the audio tracks alongside or replacing the DV camera's audio for the final video. Are you saying that it can't be done completely in the digital domain but has to be transferred into the computer for editing by recapturing from an analog playback? Or that I can transfer it into the computer but that the copy protection will kick in when I try to output the finished video and prevent its final export? Or that I can transfer it once digitally but if, say, the resulting file somehow gets deleted or corrupted on the computer I can only replace it with a capture from analog, that the minidisc itself only plays back digitally one time and then locks itself???

Steve House
(computer geek looking to return to video production after 20 year hiatus)

Arne Johnson · March 29th, 2005, 03:34 PM

It's the last option of your many questions. You get one digital download, then it locks. The file that you download can be turned into a WAV and you can do whatever you want with it, duplicate it, put it on a cd to archive, whatever. The file that's left on the minidisc then can't be downloaded digitally, only played through analog.

Again, it's dumb and annoying, but as Marco said, a big improvement from no digital transfers just a year or two ago.

Steve House · March 29th, 2005, 03:39 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : It's the last option of your many questions. You get one digital download, then it locks. The file that you download can be turned into a WAV and you can do whatever you want with it, duplicate it, put it on a cd to archive, whatever. The file that's left on the minidisc then can't be downloaded digitally, only played through analog.

Again, it's dumb and annoying, but as Marco said, a big improvement from no digital transfers just a year or two ago. -->>>

How does it know I'm capturing the file versus just listening to the recording through the digital input on my spiffy stereo?

Arne Johnson · March 29th, 2005, 04:15 PM

Well, it's a whole different process. You transfer the file by USB, using Sony's software on your computer. Line out to listen on your stereo.

Steve House · March 29th, 2005, 05:10 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Well, it's a whole different process. You transfer the file by USB, using Sony's software on your computer. Line out to listen on your stereo. -->>>

I was looking earlier today at the info and user's manual for the discontinued Marantz PMD650 recorder after I saw it recommended on an indie film site. It has XLR and coaxial digital outputs to feed digital audio to other equipment as well as analog line level outputs. There's no mention of USB though. Its discussion of SCMS deals with making multi-generation copies to both MD and DAT recorders, stating those copies will be protected from further digital copying, but makes no mention of any restriction on making more than one first-generation copy off of the original master disk. It also says the SCMS "feature" can be disabled in the setup menu - I presume to allow you to make masters from analog original sources that allow multi-generation copies if you choose.

Are we talking about two totally different critters here in terms of the level of the system and their capabilities? The Marantz is claimed to be a "professional" portable recorder that was marketed as a lower cost alternative to DAT for field recording and mastering that sells in the high hundreds to single kilobuck range as opposed to multiple kilobucks for pro DAT decks - is that a whole different order of magnitude different from what I presume are the consumer recorders we've been talking about? I can't imagine anyone professionally involved in the broadcast, film, or recording industries buying a field recorder for digital mastering that only gives them one shot to transfer at prime quality from the original to the editing software. For example, was just reading in American Cinematographer about the upcoming American PBS Nature series on the rainforests. If I was going off into the Amazon rainforest with a recorder for location sound on such a project I'd want something that would let me make multiple transfers of the files if necessary once I got back home as well as the ability to create backup disks in the field while on site.

I teach computer apps for a living at the moment. I emphasize to my students that there are two kinds of computer users in the world, those who have had a hard drive fail and those who are going to have a hard drive fail. I guess I'm bringing that paranoia over to video with me. If I've got one shot at recording something, whether in the Amazon rainforest or a client's wedding, I want to eliminate as much risk of loss of that recording as possible.

Arne Johnson · March 29th, 2005, 05:49 PM

Well, imagine it you must...For the minidisc recorder was fairly popular with run-and-gun docmakers and event videographers even before the digital transfer was allowed at all. All the systems of recording you're talking about have potential losses built in. I'm not sure why you would have more confidence in a compact flash system or a hard drive. Similar scary scenarios exist with drives dying and compact flash fritzing. I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty serious about filmmaking, and yet I'm also poor. As I said before, if you have the money for the Morantz and all the attendant exponentially increasing costs as your archive grows, by all means, go there!

For the rest of us, patched together solutions will do the trick. I would also love a 35mm setup and a full crew and unlimited access to Digital Intermediates in post and...but alas, note the BUDGET in budget filmmaking.

As for the rest of your technical questions, I don't know enough about it to answer. I have a mindisc recorder with a Samson Mixpad 4 and it cost $260 all together. It works great, uncompressed sound with virtually endless and cheap memory. That works for me. You'll have to do what works for you.

Arne

Steve House · March 29th, 2005, 06:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Well, imagine it you must...For the minidisc recorder was fairly popular with run-and-gun docmakers and event videographers even before the digital transfer was allowed at all. All the systems of recording you're talking about have potential losses built in. I'm not sure why you would have more confidence in a compact flash system or a hard drive. Similar scary scenarios exist with drives dying and compact flash fritzing. I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty serious about filmmaking, and yet I'm also poor. As I said before, if you have the money for the Morantz and all the attendant exponentially increasing costs as your archive grows, by all means, go there!

For the rest of us, patched together solutions will do the trick. I would also love a 35mm setup and a full crew and unlimited access to Digital Intermediates in post and...but alas, note the BUDGET in budget filmmaking.

As for the rest of your technical questions, I don't know enough about it to answer. I have a mindisc recorder with a Samson Mixpad 4 and it cost $260 all together. It works great, uncompressed sound with virtually endless and cheap memory. That works for me. You'll have to do what works for you.

Arne -->>>

I think you misunderstood - the Marantz I was referring to IS a minidisc system. The 650 is minDisc while the 660 and 670 are the flash recorders.

http://users.aol.com/fmgp/pmd.htm Is where I first saw it.

Marco Leavitt · March 29th, 2005, 06:07 PM

Sorry, I spoke a little too broadly. I should have said "no CONSUMER portable allowed a digital transfer." The Marantz unit you mention, and the HHB Portadisc, don't have the same SCMS restrictions. They were much more expensive though, and in a different class. The Portadisc may still be in production. It's still offered at B&H and is very highly thought of. HHB minidiscs are the best by the way. They are a lot more solid than any other brand I've tried.

Kurth Bousman · March 29th, 2005, 07:05 PM

... and why would anyone think of archiving the pmd 660 cf recording on cf cards. You'd archive it like all dig data. Burning discs & on multiple HDs' or /and to tape- 5 bills at B&H - sounds like a deal to me - I remember when you could only get a modified crystalsync recorder that was a fragile sony walkman pro for double the price. The marantz will be alot more dependable than minidisc- not to run down minidisk - it's great and cheap but the marantz is the pocket recorder I've been waiting for , for 30 years. kurth

Alex Gee · March 29th, 2005, 07:20 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc.
Arne -->>>

I transfer the data to either a CD at around Aus 40 cents per 700mb or DVD at about AU$1 per 4.5gig
Am I doing something wrong?

March 29th, 2005, 10:26 AM	#17
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Here is the link for the new Marantz "walkman" CF recorder. Looks truly awesome. I had never seen something so small with Phantom power. Can even record Mp3 in real time! http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.a...9&SubCatID=180 __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 29th, 2005, 08:22 AM	#16
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Believe it or not, this arrangement was considered a huge step forward when Sony announced they would allow digital transfers on portable HiMD units. In the previous incarnation of minidisc, there was no way to do a digital transfer using a portable unit at all. Most people lived with analog transfers or bought more expensive desktop units with digital outputs (that's what we did). This kind of bullheadedness is what all but killed the format.

March 29th, 2005, 11:21 AM	#18
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Beachteks' DXA-10 is specifically desinged to hook up to portable recoreds (mini disk, iriver...) with preamps, dual xlr... uses 9 volt battery. That would solve the volume level issues.

March 29th, 2005, 11:58 AM	#19
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	That Marantz recorder looks fantastic.

March 29th, 2005, 01:38 PM	#20
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	In response to Steve, yes it's annoying...but that's not exactly what happens. you get one chance to digitally transfer the file, but an unlimited amount of chances to transfer using the line out. The sound quality drops some, but as pointed out by Marco in another thread, there've been tests done that show it's not catastrophic. If you're in a situation requiring absolute acoustic fidelity on which your whole professional reputation rests, then you're probably not using a minidisc recorder anyway. It's a guerilla workaround for those of us who don't have $500 to spend on that great Marantz recorder. Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. As a doc-maker, I have to archive my recordings, can't wipe them out, so it's a good solution. If I had the money, believe me, I'd use something else. But for $200 (the NHZ800), you can't do better. The sound is great, uncompressed, and it weighs less than my wallet. Arne

March 29th, 2005, 03:11 PM	#21
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : In response to Steve, yes it's annoying...but that's not exactly what happens. you get one chance to digitally transfer the file, but an unlimited amount of chances to transfer using the line out. The sound quality drops some, but as pointed out by Marco in another thread, there've been tests done that show it's not catastrophic. If you're in a situation requiring absolute acoustic fidelity on which your whole professional reputation rests, then you're probably not using a minidisc recorder anyway. It's a guerilla workaround for those of us who don't have $500 to spend on that great Marantz recorder. Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. As a doc-maker, I have to archive my recordings, can't wipe them out, so it's a good solution. If I had the money, believe me, I'd use something else. But for $200 (the NHZ800), you can't do better. The sound is great, uncompressed, and it weighs less than my wallet. Arne -->>> Okay now I'm getting confused. Though I'm a computer geek by profession my video production and sound recording experiences are way back in the analog days so bear with me - I've been reading up on SCMS copy protection since encountering this thread. Is that what we're talking about here? If so, let me see if I've got it straight. As I read the info I've found so far, it sounds like it deals with making multi-generation digital copies of a digital minidisc master. Let's say I'm using a minidisc recorder in the field to record wild sound or for double-system sync sound while filming with a DV camera. From what I've been reading, I could make a copy of that disc to another minidisc or a DAT tape but I then would not be able to take that copy and re-copy it to further digital generations. But I haven't read anything to suggest I can't use my original master and make multiple first generation digital copies off of it, I just can't subsequently copy the copies. Yet the post that I saw earlier seemed to suggest that you got one chance to copy that master disc digitally and then somehow it got locked so that it would only playback through the original recorder's (or another deck's) analog outputs from that point on. I confess that doesn't make a lot of sense to me - have I misunderstood? By the way, was looking at some information on the (now discontinued) Marantz PMD650 professional minidisc recorder and it says that the copy protection can be disabled in the setup menus if one chooses. Say I'm using a minidisc on a shoot to capture room tone & ambience, wild sound & FX, additional mikes on live music on location, additional voice sync tracks beyond the 2 or 4 recorded on the tape by the DV camera, or whatever. Or perhaps using it during post to master the narration tracks to go into the video. I then want to import the audio from the minidisc into the computer to use as media clips in Vegas/Sound Forge, Premiere Pro/Audition, Audacity or whatever for editing and sweetening, and then mixing it into the audio tracks alongside or replacing the DV camera's audio for the final video. Are you saying that it can't be done completely in the digital domain but has to be transferred into the computer for editing by recapturing from an analog playback? Or that I can transfer it into the computer but that the copy protection will kick in when I try to output the finished video and prevent its final export? Or that I can transfer it once digitally but if, say, the resulting file somehow gets deleted or corrupted on the computer I can only replace it with a capture from analog, that the minidisc itself only plays back digitally one time and then locks itself??? Steve House (computer geek looking to return to video production after 20 year hiatus)

March 29th, 2005, 03:34 PM	#22
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	It's the last option of your many questions. You get one digital download, then it locks. The file that you download can be turned into a WAV and you can do whatever you want with it, duplicate it, put it on a cd to archive, whatever. The file that's left on the minidisc then can't be downloaded digitally, only played through analog. Again, it's dumb and annoying, but as Marco said, a big improvement from no digital transfers just a year or two ago.

March 29th, 2005, 03:39 PM	#23
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : It's the last option of your many questions. You get one digital download, then it locks. The file that you download can be turned into a WAV and you can do whatever you want with it, duplicate it, put it on a cd to archive, whatever. The file that's left on the minidisc then can't be downloaded digitally, only played through analog. Again, it's dumb and annoying, but as Marco said, a big improvement from no digital transfers just a year or two ago. -->>> How does it know I'm capturing the file versus just listening to the recording through the digital input on my spiffy stereo?

March 29th, 2005, 04:15 PM	#24
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	Well, it's a whole different process. You transfer the file by USB, using Sony's software on your computer. Line out to listen on your stereo.

March 29th, 2005, 05:10 PM	#25
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Well, it's a whole different process. You transfer the file by USB, using Sony's software on your computer. Line out to listen on your stereo. -->>> I was looking earlier today at the info and user's manual for the discontinued Marantz PMD650 recorder after I saw it recommended on an indie film site. It has XLR and coaxial digital outputs to feed digital audio to other equipment as well as analog line level outputs. There's no mention of USB though. Its discussion of SCMS deals with making multi-generation copies to both MD and DAT recorders, stating those copies will be protected from further digital copying, but makes no mention of any restriction on making more than one first-generation copy off of the original master disk. It also says the SCMS "feature" can be disabled in the setup menu - I presume to allow you to make masters from analog original sources that allow multi-generation copies if you choose. Are we talking about two totally different critters here in terms of the level of the system and their capabilities? The Marantz is claimed to be a "professional" portable recorder that was marketed as a lower cost alternative to DAT for field recording and mastering that sells in the high hundreds to single kilobuck range as opposed to multiple kilobucks for pro DAT decks - is that a whole different order of magnitude different from what I presume are the consumer recorders we've been talking about? I can't imagine anyone professionally involved in the broadcast, film, or recording industries buying a field recorder for digital mastering that only gives them one shot to transfer at prime quality from the original to the editing software. For example, was just reading in American Cinematographer about the upcoming American PBS Nature series on the rainforests. If I was going off into the Amazon rainforest with a recorder for location sound on such a project I'd want something that would let me make multiple transfers of the files if necessary once I got back home as well as the ability to create backup disks in the field while on site. I teach computer apps for a living at the moment. I emphasize to my students that there are two kinds of computer users in the world, those who have had a hard drive fail and those who are going to have a hard drive fail. I guess I'm bringing that paranoia over to video with me. If I've got one shot at recording something, whether in the Amazon rainforest or a client's wedding, I want to eliminate as much risk of loss of that recording as possible.

March 29th, 2005, 05:49 PM	#26
Arne Johnson Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: United States Posts: 88	Well, imagine it you must...For the minidisc recorder was fairly popular with run-and-gun docmakers and event videographers even before the digital transfer was allowed at all. All the systems of recording you're talking about have potential losses built in. I'm not sure why you would have more confidence in a compact flash system or a hard drive. Similar scary scenarios exist with drives dying and compact flash fritzing. I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty serious about filmmaking, and yet I'm also poor. As I said before, if you have the money for the Morantz and all the attendant exponentially increasing costs as your archive grows, by all means, go there! For the rest of us, patched together solutions will do the trick. I would also love a 35mm setup and a full crew and unlimited access to Digital Intermediates in post and...but alas, note the BUDGET in budget filmmaking. As for the rest of your technical questions, I don't know enough about it to answer. I have a mindisc recorder with a Samson Mixpad 4 and it cost $260 all together. It works great, uncompressed sound with virtually endless and cheap memory. That works for me. You'll have to do what works for you. Arne

March 29th, 2005, 06:01 PM	#27
Steve House Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada Posts: 5,742	<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Well, imagine it you must...For the minidisc recorder was fairly popular with run-and-gun docmakers and event videographers even before the digital transfer was allowed at all. All the systems of recording you're talking about have potential losses built in. I'm not sure why you would have more confidence in a compact flash system or a hard drive. Similar scary scenarios exist with drives dying and compact flash fritzing. I don't know what to tell you. I'm pretty serious about filmmaking, and yet I'm also poor. As I said before, if you have the money for the Morantz and all the attendant exponentially increasing costs as your archive grows, by all means, go there! For the rest of us, patched together solutions will do the trick. I would also love a 35mm setup and a full crew and unlimited access to Digital Intermediates in post and...but alas, note the BUDGET in budget filmmaking. As for the rest of your technical questions, I don't know enough about it to answer. I have a mindisc recorder with a Samson Mixpad 4 and it cost $260 all together. It works great, uncompressed sound with virtually endless and cheap memory. That works for me. You'll have to do what works for you. Arne -->>> I think you misunderstood - the Marantz I was referring to IS a minidisc system. The 650 is minDisc while the 660 and 670 are the flash recorders. http://users.aol.com/fmgp/pmd.htm Is where I first saw it.

March 29th, 2005, 06:07 PM	#28
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Sorry, I spoke a little too broadly. I should have said "no CONSUMER portable allowed a digital transfer." The Marantz unit you mention, and the HHB Portadisc, don't have the same SCMS restrictions. They were much more expensive though, and in a different class. The Portadisc may still be in production. It's still offered at B&H and is very highly thought of. HHB minidiscs are the best by the way. They are a lot more solid than any other brand I've tried.

March 29th, 2005, 07:05 PM	#29
Kurth Bousman Major Player Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: san miguel allende , gto , mexico Posts: 644	... and why would anyone think of archiving the pmd 660 cf recording on cf cards. You'd archive it like all dig data. Burning discs & on multiple HDs' or /and to tape- 5 bills at B&H - sounds like a deal to me - I remember when you could only get a modified crystalsync recorder that was a fragile sony walkman pro for double the price. The marantz will be alot more dependable than minidisc- not to run down minidisk - it's great and cheap but the marantz is the pocket recorder I've been waiting for , for 30 years. kurth

March 29th, 2005, 07:20 PM	#30
Alex Gee Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Cowell South Australia Posts: 32	<<<-- Originally posted by Arne Johnson : Thing is, if you use the Marantz, and want to archive your recordings, you'll have to pay about $90 per 1 gig flash card, as opposed to $6 for a 1 gig minidisc. Arne -->>> I transfer the data to either a CD at around Aus 40 cents per 700mb or DVD at about AU$1 per 4.5gig Am I doing something wrong?