Mic solutions - on/off camera - TC synching

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Carlos E. Martinez

As long as you can find it...

This is a box I might be interested in too, but it's a mystery where to buy it. Does anyone know of an actual place to get one?

Carlos,

putting LANC and SMPTE into Google gives me

http://www.spcomms.com/lanc_interface/index.html
http://www.spcomms.com/lport/

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

putting LANC and SMPTE into Google gives me

http://www.spcomms.com/lanc_interface/index.html
http://www.spcomms.com/lport/

Some people commented that those were not really available, but my information may be wrong.

[Ty Ford]

Maybe it's the journ alist in me, but I never trust "some people" when finding out for myself is so easy.

I have heard of problems with Zeitx delivering a time code slate. Don't know if their LANC SMPTE reader is any good or available.

http://www.zeitx.com/site3/lanclump.htm

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Carlos E. Martinez]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Maybe it's the journ alist in me, but I never trust "some people" when finding out for myself is so easy.

I have heard of problems with Zeitx delivering a time code slate. Don't know if their LANC SMPTE reader is any good or available.

http://www.zeitx.com/site3/lanclump.htm

Well, "some people" is who we relate with on these forums. If I made a search I would probably find the names, but I didn't think it was worth it.

But I never found anyone that actually bought one of those converters and used them. And then reported and how they did.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Maybe it's the journ alist in me, but I never trust "some people" when finding out for myself is so easy.

I have heard of problems with Zeitx delivering a time code slate. Don't know if their LANC SMPTE reader is any good or available.

http://www.zeitx.com/site3/lanclump.htm

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ambient supposedly has introduced a Tiny LANC Reader that extracts code from the LANC terminal but it's damned hard to find details about it on their site.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Steve House

Very true, but when you playback a recording on devices like the SD 7xx series they take the timestamp in the file header and regenerate the timecode for output just as if it had been recorded in a parallel track to begin with.

True enough, but not really relevant to today's common workflows - again, we're done with synching machines, now we'll take the files off of the 744 and put them up on the NLE timeline for sync.

Originally Posted by Steve House

The important point is that in DV workflows, timecode in and of itself doesn't prevent drift but merely provides an identiable common point of reference in the audio and video streams to allow them to be aligned to each other in post.

Quite so. And, it should be pointed out, timecode lock of yesteryear was extremely finicky, and very, very expensive as well. Those were the days that online edit suites costing hundreds of USD per hour were a common way to do final edit and finish, requiring multiple hundreds of thousands or millions in capital expense and lots of maintenance engineering.

We can whine about the sad state of timecode support in today's prosumer equipment (and I do!), but the truth is we can do an amazing amount of work, including ersatz timecode sync with a total investment of less than $10,000 US for Audio/Video acquisition and editing, and no one would want to go back.

[Gints Klimanis]

I'm looking at hooking up an Edirol R4 Pro (don't have it yet) with a Sony Z1U to record four tracks of audio on the Edirol as well as routing two of those tracks to the Z1U audio inputs. I've combed the Edirol and Z1U manuals and brochures. There is mention of starting/stopping the Edirol from an external controller, but I really do not have the ability to test before purchase. Is there any hope of connecting the Z1U Lanc to the L-port of the Edirol for deck control ? Am I high ?

Basically, I want to record four audio tracks (two from stereo mic, two from wireless mics) on an Edirol from the Sony Z1U camera angle and two audio tracks on an FX1 from its own camera angle. Immediately after the session, I'd like to be able to play backfour of the audio tracks from the Z1U for a video review. Am I really high ?

[Seth Bloombaum]

I've not used either the R4 or the R4 Pro!

My understanding is that Control-L, aka. Lanc control is only available on the R4. From what I've read, yes, an R4 would start and stop recording slaved to the Lanc port of a Z1. With some care (ie. a structured process, some notes taken, etc.) this gives you a set of audio files that will closely match your video clips transferred from tape with scene detection.

Moving up to the R4 Pro, you lose Lanc, but gain timecode. Typically, with something like a Z1, you would do free-run timecode that corresponds to time-of-day. Because it's free-run, and you're setting TC on the Z1 and R4 Pro by hand, without the benefit of jamming, this will typically be several frames off.

After doing rough sync in the NLE to timecode, fine sync would then be accomplished by slipping R4 audio in the timeline to match camera audio with no echo. This sounds harder than it is.

A clapper slate or TC slate can be used with the R4 Pro as well, giving visual reference for more exact sync. A clapper slate can be used with the R4. Your style of shooting might or might not benefit from using either slate.

If you search back in the archives, Douglas Spotted Eagle has posted positive experiences of using the Lanc capabilities of the R4. If it were me... I'd probably go for the R4 Pro and timecode. It's also a later model, and has some other nice features that improve on the R4.

[Gints Klimanis]

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

If you search back in the archives, Douglas Spotted Eagle has posted positive experiences of using the Lanc capabilities of the R4. If it were me... I'd probably go for the R4 Pro and timecode. It's also a later model, and has some other nice features that improve on the R4.

Thanks for the help, Seth. I found Douglas's posts, but they're from 2005 and indicate that the R4 pro was not available to him at the time. Would you go for the R4Pro even if you have a free-run timecode machine with no time-code output such as the Sony Z1? I've given up on my dream of having a horu channel field recorder that will play back with my camcorder. Now, I'm wondering just how tough it will be to sync those audio files given that my timecode won't be that accurate.

[Ron Priest]

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Now, I'm wondering just how tough it will be to sync those audio files given that my timecode won't be that accurate.

I have the R4 (not pro) and can at least tell you that it will stay in sync with my VX2100. My test was accomplished in 96/24 at over an hour time span. Capturing my DV to PPro and dumping it to the time line, then syncing my R4 files to the time line, everything stayed in sync, I had no drift.

[Gints Klimanis]

Originally Posted by Ron Priest

I have the R4 (not pro) and can at least tell you that it will stay in sync with my VX2100. My test was accomplished in 96/24 at over an hour time span. Capturing my DV to PPro and dumping it to the time line, then syncing my R4 files to the time line, everything stayed in sync, I had no drift.

That's reassuring. So, you're take on the Start/Stop record control via the Lanc connection is that it is quite close sample accurate or at least within our tolerance ? The non-pro R4 may then actually work better than hand-configured time sync with the Sony Z1 footage.

[Ron Priest]

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

That's reassuring. So, you're take on the Start/Stop record control via the Lanc connection is that it is quite close sample accurate or at least within our tolerance ? The non-pro R4 may then actually work better than hand-configured time sync with the Sony Z1 footage.

No, I have not used the Lanc connection yet. To tell you the truth, I don't think I will have that much of a need for it. My main purpose in purchasing the R4 was for a contentious audio recording from the beggining of the ceremony to the end. I don't want my R4 to stop recording if I have to stop my camcorder and change a tape in the middle of the ceremony. Likewise, I want a contentious recording at the reception, I'll sync my video to the audio as needed, as long as I know there is no drift in the audio recording from start to finish I'm good to go, the audio is my "master bed"

The sync test that I described above was accomplished with my camera pointed at the TV while I played a DVD (concert) on the TV. I did a clap test at the beggining of the recording standing in front of the camera, and another clap test more than an hour later at the end of the recording (and a few claps in-between). As the camera was recording, so was the R4. The R4 was recording in what's called the 4CHx1 That's a 4 channel recording to 1 four-channel wav file. It's pretty cool actually, when you go to place the single wav file on your Premirere Pro time-line, Premiere will automatically place each channel in it's own track (i.e. 4 mono tracks) I had the left & right line out of my DVD player connected driectly to the R4 inputs 1 & 2, while I had external mics connected to the R4 on inputs 3 & 4. As I stated in my privious post, once I captured my DV footage and copied my wav file from the R4 into my PPro project and got it all in sync with the first clap, all of the claps were in frame.

Hope that helps.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

...Would you go for the R4Pro even if you have a free-run timecode machine with no time-code output such as the Sony Z1? ...Now, I'm wondering just how tough it will be to sync those audio files given that my timecode won't be that accurate.

Yes, I would go for the R4 Pro. Your mileage may vary. I'd rather have the TC capabilities that would better support the recorder to be untethered from the camera. But if you'll always have the recorder next to the camera you'll save $700 with the R4,... and your rough sync will work (with a little care). I have to imagine that you'd still be doing some sliding of R4 audio against camera audio for fine sync.

I've synched footage from two Z1s and a Sound Devices 744T, using rough time-of-day timecode. No problem with the workflow I briefly described above. I work in Vegas.

I've synched footage from a PD150 with sound from an HHB Portadisc - no timecode and no Lanc. A little more difficult to find sync points. This was with full hour-long takes; if you're doing this kind of sync it is helpful to not start and stop the video or audio recording.

In all cases it is essential to have reference audio on the camera. This is best with a feed from the recorder, but, all the synching I've done has been with reference audio from the camera mic.

None of the above shoots were with a clapper or TC slate.

[Gints Klimanis]

Originally Posted by Ron Priest

No, I have not used the Lanc connection yet. To tell you the truth, I don't think I will have that much of a need for it. My main purpose in purchasing the R4 was for a contentious audio recording from the beggining of the ceremony to the end.

Hope that helps.

Thanks, Ron. Your experiences with the R4 are very helpful. Since I have been starting and stopping the camera a lot (coverage of martial arts matches. In camera "editing" with stop-start makes for a very useful video review after the competition), I was hoping that the LANC would help with such time sync without the need for clapping before each of 10-30 matches.

Can't wait for new portable mixers contain a 4+ channel digital recorder. Ty Ford posted something about the Aaton Cantar-X, but $15k is out of my league.
http://www.aaton.com/products/sound/cantar/specs.php
http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_aaton_cantarx_field/

[Ron Priest]

Originally Posted by Gints Klimanis

Thanks, Ron. I was hoping that the LANC would help with such time sync without the need for clapping before each of 10-30 matches.

Your welcome. Sorry, I havn't tested the LanC. BTW, How many audio tracks to you need to cover a martial arts match?