A definitevely comparison between Sony UWP-C1 and Sennheiser Evolution G2 ???

Douglas Spotted Eagle · November 25th, 2005, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Atias

If a design utilizes dual receivers (a requirement for "True" diversity), the specifications would say so, as it would be a marketing advantage. Pseudo-diversity, where a single receiver circuit is switched between two antennas by some criteria, are given various names.

Exactly. However, your previous post intimated that because of antenna length, the Sony systems (and would carry over to most video industry wireless) weren't true diversity. Given that Sony's literature/owners manual for the majority of the UWP systems specifies "dual input circuitry" I'd take that to mean it's a true diversity system. Sony is famous for making their own names for common terms.

Given that I have both a G2 system, and a Sony system (and several AT, Comtek, Nady, and Lectrosonics systems) I'll gladly take the Sony over the G2. When the G2 first started shipping just about a year ago, we had 3 of them at the DC Convention Center. None of them would function across the room without dropouts or interference, depending on the settings. Granted, we only took about 10 minutes to get them going, and we could have spent more time with them, but the Sony and the AT were out of the box functioning. All of the mics we used there were fresh out of the box, and had never been used before, so they all were starting at the same "zero" point. Given choices of all my wireless systems, we use the AT and Lectrosonics the most, depending on what we're doing.

Marty Atias · November 25th, 2005, 08:47 AM

"None of them would function across the room without dropouts or interference, depending on the settings. Granted, we only took about 10 minutes to get them going, and we could have spent more time with them, but the Sony and the AT were out of the box functioning. All of the mics we used there were fresh out of the box, and had never been used before, so they all were starting at the same "zero" point. "

Except for one crtitical difference, the operating frequencies would have been different between the brands.

Given Sony's propensity for loose use of terms, "Dual Input Circuitry" does not necessarily mean "dual receiver circuitry". Only a schematic or block diagram would reveal the degree of trueness.

Not that whatever they are doing doesn't improve performance over what it would do with only one antenna, It could work very well. And I'll also note that a properly designed non-diversity system can outperform a poorly designed true div. system. Assuming good design engineering though, a true div will outperform a pseudo div.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · November 25th, 2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Atias

Except for one crtitical difference, the operating frequencies would have been different between the brands.

Well...I sort of assumed no one would think we are dummies, since we do have several books out, plus DVDs on audio...We did shift frequencies on the Senn several times. The A/V people from the convention center had a pair of them as well, that they'd just received, and told us they were aware of problems with their units as well, and so for the time being, they were using their older Shure systems instead.
All systems we had/have are UHF/diversity systems.

It doesn't matter to me what people buy since I don't sell wireless (or other audio equipment) but can say that Sennheiser and Nady are about the only two wireless' I've had a number of problems with. (Samson, Azden, and some of the other very low end systems not included, of course)
According to Andy Munitz of Sony's Professional Audio division, the UWPs are true diversity.
If you're a dealer that doesn't sell Sony, I can understand where you're coming from.
Given that I'm using a wireless every day, my preferences are Audio Technica U100, Lectrosonics, and Sony. I've got no paid or trade endorsement deals with any of these companies, the gear I've got is gear I've tested and liked, and found to be substantive for our uses. Sennheiser has great products too, their G2 wireless just didn't work out for us when we gave it a shot on a couple of occasions.

Marty Atias · November 25th, 2005, 10:37 PM

Actually, I do sell Sony products. Though I'm not here to sell anything, but to share information, and I stand by my signature line.

I trust that you went through the standard proceedure for trying to find a clear channel among those that were available on that unit. Do you recall what band the unit was? As you know, each wireless set (from all manufacturers) is available in several "Blocks" or frequency bands that span approximately 2 TV channels. Is it possible that your G2 unit was delivered with a block that had both channels occupied by TV stations in the DC area? Did you try tuning both brands to the same frequency and do a walk test (not at the same time, of course)? When we order a wireless unit for a customer, we take great care to ask the customer where they will be using their system and do a frequency search for clear channels so as to get them the best block for that area.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · November 25th, 2005, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Atias

Did you try tuning both brands to the same frequency and do a walk test (not at the same time, of course)? .

Indeed we did exactly this, only for a few moments, as we didn't have a lot of time. We assumed that 60 mins would be enough to set them up. These were demos, sent by the manufacturer for the Government Expo show, Sennheiser provided them direct, and knew where we were using them. The AT's worked just fine in the same freq as the G2, I believe they were 725-800MHz range, but that was exactly a year ago, so I'm not remembering totally clearly.
FWIW, I also like the sound of the AT better overall, not that you can be anything but subjective about sound quality. :-)

Graeme Fullick · November 26th, 2005, 03:59 PM

I was recently in this same position - and I auditioned the Senn and the Sony. Although I went with the Senn in mind (I have several Sennheiser mics and am very happy with them) I ended up buying the Sony UWP C1 and am very happy with it. You are correct about the mic however with the Sony - it is ordinary and not a patch on my Sony ECM 88 (this is a very nice lav.). I have opted to buy an AKG C417L lav. as a direct replacement for the supplied Sony mic. The AKG is not quite up to an ECM 77, but it is very very good for the price (A$150 - which would probably mean less than $100 in the states). I am very happy with the system. Have not had any dropouts and the thing has great range. Will be taking it to Antarctica for some film work next week. This will be a test of all my audio and video gear. I just need to come up with a decent noise suppression system for my lavs. and I will be happy. Am trying to make these now with fake fur and silk.

Andrew Hood · November 26th, 2005, 09:25 PM

Graeme; what was the deciding factor in the end for you? Was there a difference in performance. Or was there much price difference for you? I think with the axtra mic factored in they're pretty close from the prices I've seen.
I know at Tasman AV they said they tested the Sony with someone walking around the block in central Collingwood (Hoddle St) and had no dropouts.
So where abouts have you used the wireless system?

Probably the biggest problem with filming outdoors in Antarctica will be the low temps. Batteries just won't be friendly there at all, but I don't know what covers you can get for cameras that insulate well. And most cameras state operation should be >0 Celsius. Maybe Lithium batteries are OK, so long as all the cells are working - but I know if one goes, your operating times diminish. Cold makes this worse.

I've been looking at the other mic modules. Is the 77 cardioid? Videoguys recommended getting the ECM44 (~ $170), but they're may be better mics for the money as you've suggested. I'm more inclined towards an omni for weddings. Though I suppose it's good to have a few options available on hand for differing circumstances.

On the windshield side, I don't know if they have a blimp for lav mics, but there are limits to what foam and fur can do - and Antarctica is probably where you will find them. Just hope you don't get strong winds when you're there. At least you won't get rained on.

Graeme Fullick · November 27th, 2005, 01:50 AM

Andrew,

The Sony just outperformed the Senn. better range and slightly better quality sound in my opinion (although this is difficult to compare with different mics). THe Senn. also had a couple of crackles. With the AKG I definitely preferred the Sony on all counts and it was about the same price with the AKG fitted. I am sure with an ECM 77B the SOny would be a lot better. Pity really because I liked the look and build of the Senn better. I am sure I have made the correct choice however.

I know that the cold will be a big problem in Antarctica. I have an all weather housing for my Sony A1 - but my Z1 will be only protected by a KATA rain cover. I have stack of batteries - and I intend to keep them next my body to remain warm - and swap them as required. I do expect that I will get very good range and few interferences in Antarctica from my wireless system! I have tried to make my own wind suppression system for the Lavs - but it is looking like I will have to buy some windcats for them. Oh well can't get do it yourself with everything! Have made a very good wind blimp for my Sennheiser ME64 - tested to about 80kph with no noise!

Andrew Hood · November 28th, 2005, 04:34 AM

Thanks for the info Graeme.
Yeah I figured you'd at least have some idea what you're doing. I don't imagine many people go that far south without some forethought. As much as I like my cross country skiing and snow I'm not rushing to go anywhere that harsh.

Just wondering where you picked up your AKG C417L mic from? I'm looking for a good price on it, rather than any price. And which fitting did it have for the wireless - it looks like the Sony takes something similar to a 3.5mm connector. Sounds like a good way to go anyway, can always upgrade to an even better mic later.

Enjoy the trip, and the extra daylight. At least it should be the better time of year to go.

Stu Holmes · November 28th, 2005, 03:17 PM

Graeme

Good luck on your trip and do recount your experiences to us when you're back please !

best regards

Graeme Fullick · November 29th, 2005, 10:55 PM

Thanks guys - I am really looking forward to the experience - it should be a real challenge, but I know that I will get some great footage. Will report on the performance of equipment including the Sony UWP C1 when I get back in a couple of months.

Andrew - picked up my AKG from John Barry (Panavision) in Sydney. THese people really know what they are doing. THey have a Melbourne office as well. The Sony takes a 3.5mm locking mini-jack connector - which the AKG plugs straight in to.

Bob Grant · November 30th, 2005, 05:18 AM

Another Syndeysider here, sorry to say but in our experience the Sennheisers leave the Sony gear for dead, we were able to get at least 10 times the range out of the Sennheisers compared to the Sony kit plus they're way more robust. We now have around 8 kits of G2s pretty well all hired out every weekend and so far only one faulty switch after someone sat on the transmitter. We've had these Sennheisers travel the globe without a single problem, more thay I could ever say for the Sony wireless mics that we had.
And I have to agree with the other comments made, there's no way that the Sony units are even true space diversity, the aerials are too close together for the system to work and even so the concept really only works well at HF, not UHF, for that you need frequency diversity which none of the gear at this price point has or better yet spread spectrum.
One thing though, you need to get the 500 series Sennheisers, more expensive than the 100 series but more channels and more range.

Andrew Hood · December 2nd, 2005, 03:03 AM

Bob, are you saying the Sennheiser 100 or 500 series leaves the Sony system for dead? Of course the 500 should, it's a higher end system, and you pay for it.

From what I see the 500 series has the same 1440 selectable frequencies, but there is a D and E range of frequencies for the 500 series. Is this a less used part of the spectrum - and hence less interference prone, and is it likely to stay that way?

So what are the realistic ranges of the different systems?
How much of the difference between all 3 is the trasmitter/receiver, and how much is the microphone that's used?

Seems like there's a few more things to consider - I just want to make the right purchase decision.

Bob Grant · December 2nd, 2005, 07:45 AM

We're only using the 500 series, I really can't comment on the 100 series as we only tried that series prior to the Evolution 2 came out. We're also using the quite expensive omni mics from Sennheiser, the cheaper ones used to fail, mostly the leads. These more expensive mics have pretty well unbreakable leads, I think you could garrot someone with the things. For comparision we're paying around AUD 500 for the mics, these things even come with their own serial numbers. Sorry I can't find the model number of the mics from our web site.
Apart from the extra channels the 500 series seems to have greater range as well, that may or may not be a factor for you to consider.
I should explain that I work for a hire company, cost isn't our main consideration, reliability, robustness and ease of use are the biggest factors. Some of the gear we carry I probably wouldn't buy myself, I look after my kit so I can afford to spend a bit less on it. Then again my evaluations are pretty valid if you're working in harsh environments or travelling with the gear where a failure can be a disaster.
I'll also add that it's been a few years since we tried any of the Sony wireless kit. Up until we sold off our Sony wireless mics we'd not had a good run with them, less reliable, nowhere near the range etc of the Sennheisers and that was before the e2 range came out.
As I think I mentioned before you do need to invest a little time with the Sennheisers to get the most out of them, setting input levels is pretty important.
As to interference, we have our mics set with each kit on its own channel and so far not a single mention of interference from anything, I test these things with a GSM mobile in my pocket and have never heard a beep from the mobile get into the mics.
At the end of the day there's probably not THAT much difference between the Sennhesier 100 series and the Sony offering, the 500 series though is a different story, maybe it's an unfair one given the price difference.

Graeme Fullick · December 2nd, 2005, 05:39 PM

Bob, I did post earlier (but it seems to have been lost) commenting pretty much the same as you just said. I am a Sennheiser fan - and I know that the 500 series are good (but at this price I might consider a Lectrosonics set), but the 100 series just are not as good as the Sony UWP's. Apparently the Sony UWP's are totally different to the old Sony systems. My dealer said that they were very sceptical at first after using the old Sony systems - but after using the UWP C1 they came to the same conclusion that I had (apart from the ordinary supplied lav mic.).

The Senns. are built better - but I look after my equipment - and for me the Sony system is more than robust enough, so performance is the main issue here.

November 25th, 2005, 08:47 AM	#17
Marty Atias Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 91	"None of them would function across the room without dropouts or interference, depending on the settings. Granted, we only took about 10 minutes to get them going, and we could have spent more time with them, but the Sony and the AT were out of the box functioning. All of the mics we used there were fresh out of the box, and had never been used before, so they all were starting at the same "zero" point. " Except for one crtitical difference, the operating frequencies would have been different between the brands. Given Sony's propensity for loose use of terms, "Dual Input Circuitry" does not necessarily mean "dual receiver circuitry". Only a schematic or block diagram would reveal the degree of trueness. Not that whatever they are doing doesn't improve performance over what it would do with only one antenna, It could work very well. And I'll also note that a properly designed non-diversity system can outperform a poorly designed true div. system. Assuming good design engineering though, a true div will outperform a pseudo div. __________________ Warning: I am an equipment dealer (and have been an an audio engineer for 30 years). I have a bias towards brands that say what they do and do what they say, but my loyalty is to my customers. http://ATSComms.com

November 25th, 2005, 10:37 PM	#19
Marty Atias Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 91	Actually, I do sell Sony products. Though I'm not here to sell anything, but to share information, and I stand by my signature line. I trust that you went through the standard proceedure for trying to find a clear channel among those that were available on that unit. Do you recall what band the unit was? As you know, each wireless set (from all manufacturers) is available in several "Blocks" or frequency bands that span approximately 2 TV channels. Is it possible that your G2 unit was delivered with a block that had both channels occupied by TV stations in the DC area? Did you try tuning both brands to the same frequency and do a walk test (not at the same time, of course)? When we order a wireless unit for a customer, we take great care to ask the customer where they will be using their system and do a frequency search for clear channels so as to get them the best block for that area. __________________ Warning: I am an equipment dealer (and have been an an audio engineer for 30 years). I have a bias towards brands that say what they do and do what they say, but my loyalty is to my customers. http://ATSComms.com

November 26th, 2005, 03:59 PM	#21
Graeme Fullick Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 337	I was recently in this same position - and I auditioned the Senn and the Sony. Although I went with the Senn in mind (I have several Sennheiser mics and am very happy with them) I ended up buying the Sony UWP C1 and am very happy with it. You are correct about the mic however with the Sony - it is ordinary and not a patch on my Sony ECM 88 (this is a very nice lav.). I have opted to buy an AKG C417L lav. as a direct replacement for the supplied Sony mic. The AKG is not quite up to an ECM 77, but it is very very good for the price (A$150 - which would probably mean less than $100 in the states). I am very happy with the system. Have not had any dropouts and the thing has great range. Will be taking it to Antarctica for some film work next week. This will be a test of all my audio and video gear. I just need to come up with a decent noise suppression system for my lavs. and I will be happy. Am trying to make these now with fake fur and silk. __________________ Graeme

November 27th, 2005, 01:50 AM	#23
Graeme Fullick Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 337	Andrew, The Sony just outperformed the Senn. better range and slightly better quality sound in my opinion (although this is difficult to compare with different mics). THe Senn. also had a couple of crackles. With the AKG I definitely preferred the Sony on all counts and it was about the same price with the AKG fitted. I am sure with an ECM 77B the SOny would be a lot better. Pity really because I liked the look and build of the Senn better. I am sure I have made the correct choice however. I know that the cold will be a big problem in Antarctica. I have an all weather housing for my Sony A1 - but my Z1 will be only protected by a KATA rain cover. I have stack of batteries - and I intend to keep them next my body to remain warm - and swap them as required. I do expect that I will get very good range and few interferences in Antarctica from my wireless system! I have tried to make my own wind suppression system for the Lavs - but it is looking like I will have to buy some windcats for them. Oh well can't get do it yourself with everything! Have made a very good wind blimp for my Sennheiser ME64 - tested to about 80kph with no noise! __________________ Graeme

November 29th, 2005, 10:55 PM	#26
Graeme Fullick Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 337	Thanks guys - I am really looking forward to the experience - it should be a real challenge, but I know that I will get some great footage. Will report on the performance of equipment including the Sony UWP C1 when I get back in a couple of months. Andrew - picked up my AKG from John Barry (Panavision) in Sydney. THese people really know what they are doing. THey have a Melbourne office as well. The Sony takes a 3.5mm locking mini-jack connector - which the AKG plugs straight in to. __________________ Graeme

November 26th, 2005, 09:25 PM	#22
Andrew Hood Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Latrobe Valley, Vic Posts: 320	Graeme; what was the deciding factor in the end for you? Was there a difference in performance. Or was there much price difference for you? I think with the axtra mic factored in they're pretty close from the prices I've seen. I know at Tasman AV they said they tested the Sony with someone walking around the block in central Collingwood (Hoddle St) and had no dropouts. So where abouts have you used the wireless system? Probably the biggest problem with filming outdoors in Antarctica will be the low temps. Batteries just won't be friendly there at all, but I don't know what covers you can get for cameras that insulate well. And most cameras state operation should be >0 Celsius. Maybe Lithium batteries are OK, so long as all the cells are working - but I know if one goes, your operating times diminish. Cold makes this worse. I've been looking at the other mic modules. Is the 77 cardioid? Videoguys recommended getting the ECM44 (~ $170), but they're may be better mics for the money as you've suggested. I'm more inclined towards an omni for weddings. Though I suppose it's good to have a few options available on hand for differing circumstances. On the windshield side, I don't know if they have a blimp for lav mics, but there are limits to what foam and fur can do - and Antarctica is probably where you will find them. Just hope you don't get strong winds when you're there. At least you won't get rained on.

November 28th, 2005, 04:34 AM	#24
Andrew Hood Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Latrobe Valley, Vic Posts: 320	Thanks for the info Graeme. Yeah I figured you'd at least have some idea what you're doing. I don't imagine many people go that far south without some forethought. As much as I like my cross country skiing and snow I'm not rushing to go anywhere that harsh. Just wondering where you picked up your AKG C417L mic from? I'm looking for a good price on it, rather than any price. And which fitting did it have for the wireless - it looks like the Sony takes something similar to a 3.5mm connector. Sounds like a good way to go anyway, can always upgrade to an even better mic later. Enjoy the trip, and the extra daylight. At least it should be the better time of year to go.

November 28th, 2005, 03:17 PM	#25
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	Graeme Good luck on your trip and do recount your experiences to us when you're back please ! best regards

November 30th, 2005, 05:18 AM	#27
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Another Syndeysider here, sorry to say but in our experience the Sennheisers leave the Sony gear for dead, we were able to get at least 10 times the range out of the Sennheisers compared to the Sony kit plus they're way more robust. We now have around 8 kits of G2s pretty well all hired out every weekend and so far only one faulty switch after someone sat on the transmitter. We've had these Sennheisers travel the globe without a single problem, more thay I could ever say for the Sony wireless mics that we had. And I have to agree with the other comments made, there's no way that the Sony units are even true space diversity, the aerials are too close together for the system to work and even so the concept really only works well at HF, not UHF, for that you need frequency diversity which none of the gear at this price point has or better yet spread spectrum. One thing though, you need to get the 500 series Sennheisers, more expensive than the 100 series but more channels and more range.

December 2nd, 2005, 03:03 AM	#28
Andrew Hood Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Latrobe Valley, Vic Posts: 320	Bob, are you saying the Sennheiser 100 or 500 series leaves the Sony system for dead? Of course the 500 should, it's a higher end system, and you pay for it. From what I see the 500 series has the same 1440 selectable frequencies, but there is a D and E range of frequencies for the 500 series. Is this a less used part of the spectrum - and hence less interference prone, and is it likely to stay that way? So what are the realistic ranges of the different systems? How much of the difference between all 3 is the trasmitter/receiver, and how much is the microphone that's used? Seems like there's a few more things to consider - I just want to make the right purchase decision. Last edited by Andrew Hood; December 2nd, 2005 at 03:44 AM.

December 2nd, 2005, 07:45 AM	#29
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	We're only using the 500 series, I really can't comment on the 100 series as we only tried that series prior to the Evolution 2 came out. We're also using the quite expensive omni mics from Sennheiser, the cheaper ones used to fail, mostly the leads. These more expensive mics have pretty well unbreakable leads, I think you could garrot someone with the things. For comparision we're paying around AUD 500 for the mics, these things even come with their own serial numbers. Sorry I can't find the model number of the mics from our web site. Apart from the extra channels the 500 series seems to have greater range as well, that may or may not be a factor for you to consider. I should explain that I work for a hire company, cost isn't our main consideration, reliability, robustness and ease of use are the biggest factors. Some of the gear we carry I probably wouldn't buy myself, I look after my kit so I can afford to spend a bit less on it. Then again my evaluations are pretty valid if you're working in harsh environments or travelling with the gear where a failure can be a disaster. I'll also add that it's been a few years since we tried any of the Sony wireless kit. Up until we sold off our Sony wireless mics we'd not had a good run with them, less reliable, nowhere near the range etc of the Sennheisers and that was before the e2 range came out. As I think I mentioned before you do need to invest a little time with the Sennheisers to get the most out of them, setting input levels is pretty important. As to interference, we have our mics set with each kit on its own channel and so far not a single mention of interference from anything, I test these things with a GSM mobile in my pocket and have never heard a beep from the mobile get into the mics. At the end of the day there's probably not THAT much difference between the Sennhesier 100 series and the Sony offering, the 500 series though is a different story, maybe it's an unfair one given the price difference.

December 2nd, 2005, 05:39 PM	#30
Graeme Fullick Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 337	Bob, I did post earlier (but it seems to have been lost) commenting pretty much the same as you just said. I am a Sennheiser fan - and I know that the 500 series are good (but at this price I might consider a Lectrosonics set), but the 100 series just are not as good as the Sony UWP's. Apparently the Sony UWP's are totally different to the old Sony systems. My dealer said that they were very sceptical at first after using the old Sony systems - but after using the UWP C1 they came to the same conclusion that I had (apart from the ordinary supplied lav mic.). The Senns. are built better - but I look after my equipment - and for me the Sony system is more than robust enough, so performance is the main issue here. __________________ Graeme