What is the single biggest challenge... at DVinfo.net

Douglas Spotted Eagle · July 30th, 2004, 05:06 PM

relating to audio, that you find in the field or in the editing room?

Matt Gettemeier · July 30th, 2004, 09:29 PM

Indoors, controlling room interaction.

Outdoors, controlling unwanted sounds.

Overall, getting people to relax and deliver dialog in a natural and compelling way.

Since you asked for ONE answer I'd sum it up by saying the single biggest challenge is only getting the sound I want.

Ed Frazier · July 31st, 2004, 10:00 AM

I guess the audio problem I find most challenging is getting a good mix from four different sources when the ambient SPL is extremely high. The venue is auto racing and my recording position is very close to the track sound system speakers. (the track announcer really likes to turn it up). Even using Remote Audio headsets, it is difficult to determine if what I'm hearing is coming from my mixer or leaking past the ear seals.

I'm sure this is not something many on this forum have to deal with, but it certainly gives me headaches (literally) sometimes. The method I’ve found that works best is to set the trim levels on the Mackie as accurately as possible and put a lot of trust in the output leds on the mixer. It’s easy to keep the input to the camera at a safe level, but the mix is not always what I would like.

Patrick King · July 31st, 2004, 10:11 AM

Ed,
You might borrow a set of the Bose Noise-cancelling headsets. I've got a couple friends that record at a heliport and brag on the Bose being able to cancel 'noise' and keep 'audio'.

Ed Frazier · July 31st, 2004, 01:55 PM

Mike,

Thanks for the suggestion. I've often wondered if they would work well in that environment. As I understand the process used, they sample the ambient sound and apply a signal to cancel that particular noise. In my case, the ambient sound is one of the audio sources I'm recording. Another source is a direct feed from the announcer, which is also picked up with the mics used for ambient sound. I thought that might cause what I'm hearing to be less accurate than what I'm hearing now. It would be worth a try though and may be something to test in the future. I don't know if that made any sense, but again, I appreciate the suggestion.

Marty Atias · August 1st, 2004, 10:35 PM

IF the HN-7506's don't give you enough isolation, the next step (drastic as it may seem) would be to get a pair of good custom in-ear monitors and use them under a pair of aviation ear muffs. The muffs would give you about 25 - 29 dB, and the in-ears would give you another 15 -25 dB.

I wouldn't use the HN's as muffs, because the drivers would affect the response of the in-ears.

For in-ears, look at http://IFBSource.com

David Ennis · August 1st, 2004, 11:02 PM

The Bose headphones will cancel ambient sounds without affecting the audio that's fed to them electronically, even if it contains the same sounds.

Jay Massengill · August 2nd, 2004, 11:55 AM

Back to the original question I'd say that since I do a lot of live events, especially where I'm responsible for both PA sound and recording, then the biggest hurdle is anticipating people doing silly and uncooperative things. Usually this isn't on purpose, they just simply don't get it.... Like me having the podium mic perfectly positioned for the height of the first presenter and he walks out, angles the mic straight up and then takes a giant step back from the podium for his speach. Or the person who insists on presenting from in FRONT of the podium looking back at the projector screen in spite of the fact that there's a laptop on the podium that not only controls his presentation but shows it too. Of course there's no time or assistance or suitable gain before feedback to put a lav on everyone and even when you do people take them off or turn them off... Basically if you can imagine the most bizarre thing someone can do with your mic (at least in a business setting!), I guarentee somebody will top your wildest anticipation.
As for editing, my biggest hurdle is simply walking in, locking the door, bolting myself into the chair and getting started with it. After that it's a piece of cake usually.

Marty Atias · August 2nd, 2004, 12:20 PM

My biggest challenge is dealing with someone who works for the client (not the producer) trying to tell me how to do my job - or what my limitations are, which are so restrictive that they prevent any possibility of useable audio.

On one shoot for a major consulting firm, they told us that the lights are too bright, the backup stand mics are too close ("they have to be over in that corner"), and I have to swap 6 wireless mics from one group of people to the next in no more than 5 minutes - and they have to not be visible. This was not even a live show, but a mock presentation.

Consultants - you may know the type, people who get paid lots of money to tell other people how to run their business better even though they have never actually run a business like that?

Federico Dib · August 2nd, 2004, 01:59 PM

From a completely indie fiction no-budget, point of view...

- Finding someone good, to take care of the sound.

I´ve had really hard time finding someone like that. Actually it´s the weakest link on the group of people I work with doing fiction.

Usually the people we allways find for these job, are :

- Very motivated but don´t know what they are doing,
- They know what they are doing but are "just doing a favor".
- Don´t know what they are doing, and are not motivated.
- Are not aware (o do not care) that their job is as important or more than camera work or lightning.

I know that if there is no money, it´s hard to find good people..

But we allways manage to find great people for make up staff, DP, gaffers, "lightning" staff, etc.. even coffee guys we get are great.
But sound... no no around here...

July 30th, 2004, 05:06 PM	#1
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	What is the single biggest challenge... relating to audio, that you find in the field or in the editing room? __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

July 31st, 2004, 10:00 AM	#3
Ed Frazier Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 343	I guess the audio problem I find most challenging is getting a good mix from four different sources when the ambient SPL is extremely high. The venue is auto racing and my recording position is very close to the track sound system speakers. (the track announcer really likes to turn it up). Even using Remote Audio headsets, it is difficult to determine if what I'm hearing is coming from my mixer or leaking past the ear seals. I'm sure this is not something many on this forum have to deal with, but it certainly gives me headaches (literally) sometimes. The method I’ve found that works best is to set the trim levels on the Mackie as accurately as possible and put a lot of trust in the output leds on the mixer. It’s easy to keep the input to the camera at a safe level, but the mix is not always what I would like. __________________ Ed Frazier

July 31st, 2004, 10:11 AM	#4
Patrick King Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Enterprise, AL Posts: 857	Ed, You might borrow a set of the Bose Noise-cancelling headsets. I've got a couple friends that record at a heliport and brag on the Bose being able to cancel 'noise' and keep 'audio'. __________________ Fear No Weevil!

July 31st, 2004, 01:55 PM	#5
Ed Frazier Major Player Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Las Cruces, NM Posts: 343	Mike, Thanks for the suggestion. I've often wondered if they would work well in that environment. As I understand the process used, they sample the ambient sound and apply a signal to cancel that particular noise. In my case, the ambient sound is one of the audio sources I'm recording. Another source is a direct feed from the announcer, which is also picked up with the mics used for ambient sound. I thought that might cause what I'm hearing to be less accurate than what I'm hearing now. It would be worth a try though and may be something to test in the future. I don't know if that made any sense, but again, I appreciate the suggestion. __________________ Ed Frazier

August 1st, 2004, 11:02 PM	#7
David Ennis Fred Retread Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 1,227	The Bose headphones will cancel ambient sounds without affecting the audio that's fed to them electronically, even if it contains the same sounds. __________________ "Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence..." - Calvin Coolidge "My brain is wired to want to know how other things are wired." - Me

July 30th, 2004, 09:29 PM	#2
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	Indoors, controlling room interaction. Outdoors, controlling unwanted sounds. Overall, getting people to relax and deliver dialog in a natural and compelling way. Since you asked for ONE answer I'd sum it up by saying the single biggest challenge is only getting the sound I want.

August 1st, 2004, 10:35 PM	#6
Marty Atias Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 91	IF the HN-7506's don't give you enough isolation, the next step (drastic as it may seem) would be to get a pair of good custom in-ear monitors and use them under a pair of aviation ear muffs. The muffs would give you about 25 - 29 dB, and the in-ears would give you another 15 -25 dB. I wouldn't use the HN's as muffs, because the drivers would affect the response of the in-ears. For in-ears, look at http://IFBSource.com

August 2nd, 2004, 11:55 AM	#8
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	Back to the original question I'd say that since I do a lot of live events, especially where I'm responsible for both PA sound and recording, then the biggest hurdle is anticipating people doing silly and uncooperative things. Usually this isn't on purpose, they just simply don't get it.... Like me having the podium mic perfectly positioned for the height of the first presenter and he walks out, angles the mic straight up and then takes a giant step back from the podium for his speach. Or the person who insists on presenting from in FRONT of the podium looking back at the projector screen in spite of the fact that there's a laptop on the podium that not only controls his presentation but shows it too. Of course there's no time or assistance or suitable gain before feedback to put a lav on everyone and even when you do people take them off or turn them off... Basically if you can imagine the most bizarre thing someone can do with your mic (at least in a business setting!), I guarentee somebody will top your wildest anticipation. As for editing, my biggest hurdle is simply walking in, locking the door, bolting myself into the chair and getting started with it. After that it's a piece of cake usually.

August 2nd, 2004, 12:20 PM	#9
Marty Atias Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 91	My biggest challenge is dealing with someone who works for the client (not the producer) trying to tell me how to do my job - or what my limitations are, which are so restrictive that they prevent any possibility of useable audio. On one shoot for a major consulting firm, they told us that the lights are too bright, the backup stand mics are too close ("they have to be over in that corner"), and I have to swap 6 wireless mics from one group of people to the next in no more than 5 minutes - and they have to not be visible. This was not even a live show, but a mock presentation. Consultants - you may know the type, people who get paid lots of money to tell other people how to run their business better even though they have never actually run a business like that?

August 2nd, 2004, 01:59 PM	#10
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	From a completely indie fiction no-budget, point of view... - Finding someone good, to take care of the sound. I´ve had really hard time finding someone like that. Actually it´s the weakest link on the group of people I work with doing fiction. Usually the people we allways find for these job, are : - Very motivated but don´t know what they are doing, - They know what they are doing but are "just doing a favor". - Don´t know what they are doing, and are not motivated. - Are not aware (o do not care) that their job is as important or more than camera work or lightning. I know that if there is no money, it´s hard to find good people.. But we allways manage to find great people for make up staff, DP, gaffers, "lightning" staff, etc.. even coffee guys we get are great. But sound... no no around here... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.