Anything better than NTG2 in strong wind?

Anthony Ching · July 24th, 2009, 08:58 PM

Directional microphone, including shotgun, is based on pressure gradient, that is the pressure difference between the front and the back of the diaphragm. All directional mic have to "OPEN" their back, thus there is no constant pressure in the back of the diaphragm to provide additional air cushion for very low frequency = wind. All the wind disturbance and harmonics thus become apparent. That is why these microphones need wind protection and vibration suspension.

Omni microphone got a "CLOSE" back, and works on pure pressure. Thus it doesn't react that much with very "DC" like signal - wind. It is like a capacitor that block DC, only AC signal can pass. Wind = DC, speech = AC.

How OMNI beats shotgun at close up? When you put OMNI at the edge of the speaker's mouth, the diaphragm is about that distant. For a shotgun, you have to add the interference tube section, so that to reach the diaphragm. Consider the sound source distance, the signal stregth is by: 20*log(5 cm/ 25 cm), eqaul to 14dB.

So, first you get 14dB more to the wind SPL, and second you got lower sensitivity to wind. That says, OMNI wins in windy condition at close-up.

I will use a $60 Superlux PRA318, not $2000 Shcoeps CMIT5 (with blimp) in windy outdoor, and close up condition.

"Edit 1:
By the way, if you want to try how a microphone react with wind, just blow into the mic and listen with your cans. Becareful, don't blow into ribbon microphone. These pure pressure gradient, and free suspended diaphgram will produce no wind sound after you blow it hard, and no other sound since after."

"Edit 2:
Don't be fool by the polar pattern of the mic, it indicate the sound pick-up of various frequency. In case no frequency was indicated, it shall be 1KHz. This pattern has no relationship with wind noise. In case your major noise is wind instead of other surrounding, closed back microphone perform much better than open back microphone. Or pressure microphone is much bettern than pressure-gradient microphone. Direction is not an issue, but wind noise is the most important factor. To reject the surrounding noise with omni, is by different distance. Get the microphone to the sound source, increase the distance ratio from the noise. You'll get clean pick-up with omni."

"Edit 3:
Just check ebay, there're Shure VP64 at very good price. Try it yourself, compare an omni dynamic and a shotgun outdoor with high wind."

"Edit 4:
A theory proven wrong in the real world is no more theory, but a joke."

Karl Lohninger · July 25th, 2009, 03:10 AM

Well, you know, there's theory and there's the real world. Now there's even more stuff to fix in post ;-)

Vykintas Pugaciauskas · August 4th, 2009, 04:26 PM

True, there's theory and there's the real world.

For all the theory on how to protect the mic from the wind and what to use, a simple practical test proved to me what I have started with - it is the NTG-2 (at least the one that I bought at B&H) that seems to be crappy in a strong wind, not my way of using it.

I took an ECM-670 off an old BetaSP camera, put on the same softie and recreated the exact conditions for the windy shot that finally made me part with the NTG-2. Obviously, there was some rumble when exposed to a really, really strong wind but other than that, the talent voice was clear and did not need much cleaning in post. At least the sound was not choppy.

Which proved to me that not all shotguns - even in approximately the same price bracket - are made equal. Now I am sure I will not be investing in additional blimps, windjammers and other things I will not be able to carry around but into a new mic.

Which is where I started this tread from.

Bruce Taylor · August 5th, 2009, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vykintas Pugaciauskas

Which proved to me that not all shotguns - even in approximately the same price bracket - are made equal.

Let us know how you go with your new mic.

I have a few shotgun mics (AKG, Rode, Audio-Technica) but I can't say I've tried them under identical wind to see how they compare (mostly due to the fact I have only one blimp).

Mike Beckett · August 6th, 2009, 01:48 AM

I did notice that my NTG-2 lets wind in "round the back" - even with a Rycote softie on it. Wind gets in round the XLR connection, and also around the attenuator switch. You can wrap it with small pieces of foam and duct tape to help slightly.

Of course, a Rode Blimp worked wonders... but as a solo shooter, it's just too bulky for me to cart around with me.

Dave Gosley · August 14th, 2009, 02:29 PM

I was always told "the better the mic - the more it will pick up" - so I suppose that does not mean the more it will cut down on sound received - caused by movement of air...

It sounds to me like one of those situations where you have to work it rather than hpe to buy a way out of a problem.

Guy Cochran · August 17th, 2009, 02:32 PM

Are you recording dialogue? How close is your subject?
One mic that immediately comes to mind is the Sennheiser MD46. It's a cardioid with a double basket grille for taking a bit of wind. It was developed to have a bit more reach than a standard dynamic handheld mic, and to be used in windy situations. The sound is pretty amazing too. Listen to this interview I shot a few years back with Jerry Hoffman DV eStore Theatre - NAB Hoffman - and the mic is wireless on a Sennheiser SKP100 plug on transmitter, the one included in the Sennheiser EVolution G2 ENG kit.

John Willett · August 18th, 2009, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guy Cochran

- and the mic is wireless on a Sennheiser SKP100 plug on transmitter, the one included in the Sennheiser EVolution G2 ENG kit.

And on the ew 100 ENG G3 kit.

Andrew Smith · August 19th, 2009, 02:39 AM

If I'm after a mic that can solve these problems, the last thing I would be doing is to restrict myself to some small budget. I mean ... you want to have an ugly show-stopper problem solved, right? (And for something where you earn your income and reputation????) There's been a few posts like this on the forums where I tend to really wonder at the mindset of some people.

In the meantime, you will be pleased to know that all Rode mics come with a 10 year guarantee. So if the mic really isn't working properly you can always take it back.

Andrew

John Gerard · September 21st, 2009, 02:10 PM

Hi all,

I have a Rode NTG-2 and Sony FX-7 camera so I thought I might ask my question here. I have read all the discussions in this thread before posting this message. Recently I recorded Dove hunting down near Santa Barbara Ca. I find I have a lot of low rumble wind noise reviewing the footage. If I filter out 1000HZ and lower in post this cut all noise but loses dynamics. I am using both the foam windshield and the Rode Deadcat windscreen. The wind is light 3MPH or less. Before discussing alturnatives I would like to discover why I am getting so much noise with this combination. I have found that with this combination it is better to record lower and increase the volume in post. This could be part of the problem and I did not monitor with earphones which could have helped. I did monitor the levels, however. Could I be using my equipment incorrectly since I am fairly new to this equipment? I just slide on the Foam first and then the Deadcat over that. How heavy is a Blimp and can I use it as an on camera unit.
Has anyone tried building the Blimp unit shown in one of the video maker issues?

Thanks for your thoughts,

John Gerard

Allan Black · September 21st, 2009, 03:08 PM

John, probably need to start a new thread with this one.

Sounds like that Dove hunting was way in the distance, so you got noise trying to get some level.

The next level of wind protection for the NTG-2 is the Rode WS-6 which is very good, but my guess is it wouldn't have been the total answer in this case.

RØDE Microphones - WS6 Deluxe Windshield

Top level is the Blimp, it's not that heavy, you need an other person to run it properly.

But the real answer to this particular problem is, you've got to get closer to the source.

Cheers.

Phil Bambridge · September 21st, 2009, 09:00 PM

I'll second the fact that the NTG-2 has serious issues in light winds if not totally enclosed. I could breath hard, for want of a better test, on both the high-pass switch, and on the mic's XLR connection, and hear it very loudly. Somehow, which baffles me, if didn't help to tape it up. So anything like a softie, which is a great product, failed for me.

The Rycote S-330 on the other hand, worked wonderfully.

Alchemy In Nowhere Town on Vimeo

I didn't have an anemometer on me, but can tell you I was dashed chilly. The guy on screen, Byron Vincent (real name, folks), was...well verging on hypothermic by the end of things.

I should add that the audio is all from the singular wider-angle take (chap's a pro, only needed another take to get the closer-in stuff), so the mic is about, oh, 3 or 4 feet away, into the Tascam HD-P2.

Also, I'd second the idea of trying the lav- not to sound like a fanboy, but the Rycote lav furries are outstanding on my DPA 4061 mic.

John Gerard · September 23rd, 2009, 09:54 AM

Hi,

I tried posting this note before but I don't see it here so I will try again.
I thought I might try posting my message here since I have the same Mic and a simular problem. I have the Sony FX-7 camera and Rode NTG-2 Mic. I took some video (Dove Hunting) a few weeks ago and reviewing the footage I hear a low rumble in the 1000hz and below. I can filter out this range but then I loose all the dynamics of the gun fire. I am using both the Foam windscreen and then the Rode Deadcat Windshield over the foam windscreen. The wind could not have been more that a few MPH. I thought that I would not hear any wind noise at all.
I have read all the replies here. I wondered if I am not understanding something. I know that I should have monitored the sound by using earphones and not relying on the meter along. I find in general that I need to keep the volume no more than 50% to get good sound and then up the volume in post. So, this could be part of my problem. I wondered if I should invest in a blimp? I prefer to use my mic on camera so can I use the suggested blimp on camera? Also, has anyone tried to construct the Blimp that was in one of the videomaker magazine issues?

Thanks,

John Gerard

Guy Cochran · September 23rd, 2009, 10:10 AM

Wind noise can be coming in through the XLR connection at the base of the mic or maybe even through the low-cut switch. If you're not going to use a blimp in a windy situation, at least wrap them both with gaffer's tape for peace of mind. YouTube - Reducing Wind Noise

John Gerard · September 24th, 2009, 12:58 AM

Hi all,
First I did not realize there was a second page so I posted two notes. My bad. A Blimp is not out of the question if I can use it on camera. As a test I might try making the blimp described in the Videomaker mag. to see if it would work on camera. If I am using a tripod I can stick the mic on a pole near by but this setup does not work for me if I want to hand hold my camera.
;Just to through this idea out, couldn't I make up a longer Dead cat like item that would cover all the way down to the XLR connector. Would this work? What do you guys think.

John Gerard

July 24th, 2009, 08:58 PM	#16
Anthony Ching Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taipei Posts: 63	Directional microphone, including shotgun, is based on pressure gradient, that is the pressure difference between the front and the back of the diaphragm. All directional mic have to "OPEN" their back, thus there is no constant pressure in the back of the diaphragm to provide additional air cushion for very low frequency = wind. All the wind disturbance and harmonics thus become apparent. That is why these microphones need wind protection and vibration suspension. Omni microphone got a "CLOSE" back, and works on pure pressure. Thus it doesn't react that much with very "DC" like signal - wind. It is like a capacitor that block DC, only AC signal can pass. Wind = DC, speech = AC. How OMNI beats shotgun at close up? When you put OMNI at the edge of the speaker's mouth, the diaphragm is about that distant. For a shotgun, you have to add the interference tube section, so that to reach the diaphragm. Consider the sound source distance, the signal stregth is by: 20log(5 cm/ 25 cm), eqaul to 14dB. So, first you get 14dB more to the wind SPL, and second you got lower sensitivity to wind. That says, OMNI wins in windy condition at close-up. I will use a $60 Superlux PRA318, not $2000 Shcoeps CMIT5 (with blimp) in windy outdoor, and close up condition. "Edit 1: By the way, if you want to try how a microphone react with wind, just blow into the mic and listen with your cans. Becareful, don't blow into ribbon microphone. These pure pressure gradient, and free suspended diaphgram will produce no wind sound after you blow it hard, and no other sound since after." "Edit 2: Don't be fool by the polar pattern of the mic, it indicate the sound pick-up of various frequency. In case no frequency was indicated, it shall be 1KHz. This pattern has no relationship with wind noise. In case your major noise is wind instead of other surrounding, closed back microphone perform much better than open back microphone. Or pressure microphone is much bettern than pressure-gradient microphone. Direction is not an issue, but wind noise is the most important factor. To reject the surrounding noise with omni, is by different distance. Get the microphone to the sound source, increase the distance ratio from the noise. You'll get clean pick-up with omni." "Edit 3: Just check ebay, there're Shure VP64 at very good price. Try it yourself, compare an omni dynamic and a shotgun outdoor with high wind." "Edit 4: A theory proven wrong in the real world is no more theory, but a joke." __________________ Got 3 'S': Schoeps, Sound Devices, and Sony. Last edited by Anthony Ching; July 25th, 2009 at 10:06 AM.*

August 4th, 2009, 04:26 PM	#18
Vykintas Pugaciauskas New Boot Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Vilnius, Lithuania Posts: 7	Theory and real world True, there's theory and there's the real world. For all the theory on how to protect the mic from the wind and what to use, a simple practical test proved to me what I have started with - it is the NTG-2 (at least the one that I bought at B&H) that seems to be crappy in a strong wind, not my way of using it. I took an ECM-670 off an old BetaSP camera, put on the same softie and recreated the exact conditions for the windy shot that finally made me part with the NTG-2. Obviously, there was some rumble when exposed to a really, really strong wind but other than that, the talent voice was clear and did not need much cleaning in post. At least the sound was not choppy. Which proved to me that not all shotguns - even in approximately the same price bracket - are made equal. Now I am sure I will not be investing in additional blimps, windjammers and other things I will not be able to carry around but into a new mic. Which is where I started this tread from.

August 6th, 2009, 01:48 AM	#20
Mike Beckett Trustee Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Antrim, Northern Ireland Posts: 1,569	I did notice that my NTG-2 lets wind in "round the back" - even with a Rycote softie on it. Wind gets in round the XLR connection, and also around the attenuator switch. You can wrap it with small pieces of foam and duct tape to help slightly. Of course, a Rode Blimp worked wonders... but as a solo shooter, it's just too bulky for me to cart around with me. __________________ Irish Railway Videos on Youtube

August 14th, 2009, 02:29 PM	#21
Dave Gosley Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Hampshire Posts: 226	I was always told "the better the mic - the more it will pick up" - so I suppose that does not mean the more it will cut down on sound received - caused by movement of air... It sounds to me like one of those situations where you have to work it rather than hpe to buy a way out of a problem. __________________ http://www.videoproductionshampshire.co.uk

August 17th, 2009, 02:32 PM	#22
Guy Cochran DVCreators.Net Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 892	Are you recording dialogue? How close is your subject? One mic that immediately comes to mind is the Sennheiser MD46. It's a cardioid with a double basket grille for taking a bit of wind. It was developed to have a bit more reach than a standard dynamic handheld mic, and to be used in windy situations. The sound is pretty amazing too. Listen to this interview I shot a few years back with Jerry Hoffman DV eStore Theatre - NAB Hoffman - and the mic is wireless on a Sennheiser SKP100 plug on transmitter, the one included in the Sennheiser EVolution G2 ENG kit. __________________ Guy Cochran DVinfo Sponsor, Cool Gear - DVeStore!

July 25th, 2009, 03:10 AM	#17
Karl Lohninger Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 82	Well, you know, there's theory and there's the real world. Now there's even more stuff to fix in post ;-)

August 19th, 2009, 02:39 AM	#24
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,068	If I'm after a mic that can solve these problems, the last thing I would be doing is to restrict myself to some small budget. I mean ... you want to have an ugly show-stopper problem solved, right? (And for something where you earn your income and reputation????) There's been a few posts like this on the forums where I tend to really wonder at the mindset of some people. In the meantime, you will be pleased to know that all Rode mics come with a 10 year guarantee. So if the mic really isn't working properly you can always take it back. Andrew

September 21st, 2009, 02:10 PM	#25
John Gerard Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 227	Wind Rode NTG-2 Hi all, I have a Rode NTG-2 and Sony FX-7 camera so I thought I might ask my question here. I have read all the discussions in this thread before posting this message. Recently I recorded Dove hunting down near Santa Barbara Ca. I find I have a lot of low rumble wind noise reviewing the footage. If I filter out 1000HZ and lower in post this cut all noise but loses dynamics. I am using both the foam windshield and the Rode Deadcat windscreen. The wind is light 3MPH or less. Before discussing alturnatives I would like to discover why I am getting so much noise with this combination. I have found that with this combination it is better to record lower and increase the volume in post. This could be part of the problem and I did not monitor with earphones which could have helped. I did monitor the levels, however. Could I be using my equipment incorrectly since I am fairly new to this equipment? I just slide on the Foam first and then the Deadcat over that. How heavy is a Blimp and can I use it as an on camera unit. Has anyone tried building the Blimp unit shown in one of the video maker issues? Thanks for your thoughts, John Gerard

September 21st, 2009, 03:08 PM	#26
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,932	John, probably need to start a new thread with this one. Sounds like that Dove hunting was way in the distance, so you got noise trying to get some level. The next level of wind protection for the NTG-2 is the Rode WS-6 which is very good, but my guess is it wouldn't have been the total answer in this case. RØDE Microphones - WS6 Deluxe Windshield Top level is the Blimp, it's not that heavy, you need an other person to run it properly. But the real answer to this particular problem is, you've got to get closer to the source. Cheers. __________________ Drink more tap water. On admission at Sydney hospitals more than 5% of day patients are de-hydrated.

September 21st, 2009, 09:00 PM	#27
Phil Bambridge Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bristol, England Posts: 78	I'll second the fact that the NTG-2 has serious issues in light winds if not totally enclosed. I could breath hard, for want of a better test, on both the high-pass switch, and on the mic's XLR connection, and hear it very loudly. Somehow, which baffles me, if didn't help to tape it up. So anything like a softie, which is a great product, failed for me. The Rycote S-330 on the other hand, worked wonderfully. Alchemy In Nowhere Town on Vimeo I didn't have an anemometer on me, but can tell you I was dashed chilly. The guy on screen, Byron Vincent (real name, folks), was...well verging on hypothermic by the end of things. I should add that the audio is all from the singular wider-angle take (chap's a pro, only needed another take to get the closer-in stuff), so the mic is about, oh, 3 or 4 feet away, into the Tascam HD-P2. Also, I'd second the idea of trying the lav- not to sound like a fanboy, but the Rycote lav furries are outstanding on my DPA 4061 mic.

September 23rd, 2009, 09:54 AM	#28
John Gerard Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 227	Mic NTG-2 Wind Noise Hi, I tried posting this note before but I don't see it here so I will try again. I thought I might try posting my message here since I have the same Mic and a simular problem. I have the Sony FX-7 camera and Rode NTG-2 Mic. I took some video (Dove Hunting) a few weeks ago and reviewing the footage I hear a low rumble in the 1000hz and below. I can filter out this range but then I loose all the dynamics of the gun fire. I am using both the Foam windscreen and then the Rode Deadcat Windshield over the foam windscreen. The wind could not have been more that a few MPH. I thought that I would not hear any wind noise at all. I have read all the replies here. I wondered if I am not understanding something. I know that I should have monitored the sound by using earphones and not relying on the meter along. I find in general that I need to keep the volume no more than 50% to get good sound and then up the volume in post. So, this could be part of my problem. I wondered if I should invest in a blimp? I prefer to use my mic on camera so can I use the suggested blimp on camera? Also, has anyone tried to construct the Blimp that was in one of the videomaker magazine issues? Thanks, John Gerard

September 23rd, 2009, 10:10 AM	#29
Guy Cochran DVCreators.Net Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 892	Wind noise can be coming in through the XLR connection at the base of the mic or maybe even through the low-cut switch. If you're not going to use a blimp in a windy situation, at least wrap them both with gaffer's tape for peace of mind. YouTube - Reducing Wind Noise __________________ Guy Cochran DVinfo Sponsor, Cool Gear - DVeStore!

September 24th, 2009, 12:58 AM	#30
John Gerard Major Player Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Berkeley, CA, USA Posts: 227	NTG-2 Blimp Wind Noise Hi all, First I did not realize there was a second page so I posted two notes. My bad. A Blimp is not out of the question if I can use it on camera. As a test I might try making the blimp described in the Videomaker mag. to see if it would work on camera. If I am using a tripod I can stick the mic on a pole near by but this setup does not work for me if I want to hand hold my camera. ;Just to through this idea out, couldn't I make up a longer Dead cat like item that would cover all the way down to the XLR connector. Would this work? What do you guys think. John Gerard