Best mic for recording guitar?

Paul R Johnson · July 26th, 2009, 12:59 PM

The TLM170 is a bit stubbier and was quite popular in the 80s - but it could even then have been a number of vintage Neumanns - not much point guessing, I suppose?

Jimmy Tuffrey · July 26th, 2009, 04:29 PM

There were 3 identical ones. They where that shape but the pattern selector was rotary but on the side. You slid it left to right. Not a little rotary knob but more like a focus ring. Maybe I will never know.

Mike Demmers · July 26th, 2009, 05:04 PM

Normally I set up a vocal mic with the pop screen about 8 inches from the mic, and use all the techniques mentioned. Ninety eight percent of the time, that works. But not always.
Vocalists do not always stay put, and I have had them push the pop screen right into the mic, and stand on their tiptoes to reach up to a mic, etc.

Here is a not uncommon situation with rock albums:

It's the last day of tracking. The lead vocals are the last thing done (common), we are doing the last vocal. If on analog 24 track (lots of rock still done that way), we have only one track left, and are actually recording over the scratch vocal. It's a big, loud, screamer production number, which the vocalist has saved for last because he knows he is going to shred his voice doing it. If I'm lucky, he will tell me something like 'the next take is going to be much louder - and I can only do this -once- before my voice is shredded'.

I have then exactly ONE chance to get this performance. The singer is going to go to a place where he is completely immersed in his performance. He is very likely to move around his mic position, studio technique will NOT be what is on his mind, and he is likely to revert to whatever he is used to doing in his live performance, which may mean gettng right on top of the mic.

In such a situation, I will put the mic in omni mode to reduce the potential for pops and reduce problems with changing frequency response as he moves around.

There are a few situations where it is actually appropriate to have a vocalist right on top of the mic. For example, if I have a very good singer, with lots of control, with a very wide dynamic range, who has very skilled mic technique, doing certains kinds of material which may go from practically a whisper to very strong - there is a certain kind of extreme presence which you can get this way which is just stunning.

I have also used figure 8 pattern on lead vocals, typically to null out some extraneous sound source or the side wall first reflections while deliberately picking up some more distant room sound.

I have used every common studio mic pattern on lead vocals in different circumstances, with the sole exception of the hypercardioid pattern (hence my interest in Ty's earlier mention of good results with this - I would not have expected this) (Nor have I used a shotgun for a lead vocal, or a parabolic, or a lav, which I also would not expect to sound very good).

The point I am trying to make (in the context of this thread) is this: there is more than one 'correct' way to do it, and having a multi-pattern mic may be useful enough to justify the expense, because it gives you more options. I would -personally- find having just ONE pattern (in this case the cmc641 hypercardioid), no matter how wonderful the mic, a little too limiting.

I have seen too many people use cardioid mics for EVERYTHING.

If you want to start a heated discussion amongst engineers, just get them together and mention 'mics' and 'mic technique'. If you want to see actual blood to flow, also mention 'studio monitors'. ;-)

That's my $0.02

-Mike

Mike Demmers · July 26th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Tuffrey

There were 3 identical ones. They where that shape but the pattern selector was rotary but on the side. You slid it left to right. Not a little rotary knob but more like a focus ring. Maybe I will never know.

Look here, there are pictures:

Georg Neumann GmbH - Products/Current Microphones

-MD

Ty Ford · July 26th, 2009, 06:57 PM

Jimmy,

The u 89 looks like a jr version of the u 87. Even stubbier and fatter is the TLM 170.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Jimmy Tuffrey · July 27th, 2009, 02:48 AM

They must have been M 149's. Interesting. Except I'm not sure it was available in the late '80's.
Actually I went to that page a few years ago Mike and came to the same non conclusion... Definitely looked like the same mic though.

Ty Ford · July 27th, 2009, 06:20 AM

I was in my current studio when I reviewed the m149 for Pro Audio Review. I've been here almost 12 years, so not the 1980s.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Michael Thames · August 1st, 2009, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Something just occurred to me. I keep thinking that recording into the camera isn't necessarily going to give you the best result. Typically cameras are designed to record video and sound seems sort of like almost an afterthought. Scan these forums and people are always complaining about why even very expensive cameras have less than stellar pre-amps etc

And 16 bit/48k isn't really the best for music. Voice, dialogue, OK, but the demands of squeezing video into limited bandwidth always seems to dictate that sound will be sacrificed to make room for video.

Thinking about all of this, I wonder if you've ever looked at something like the Sony PCM-D50 all in one mic/recorder, or maybe one of the Zoom products.

I have the Sony and am always rather pleasantly surprised at how good the mics are at the price point. I've done a couple of brass band recordings going simultaneously into a Schoeps/Sound Devices setup and the Sony. The result is always that the high priced spread is better - but the little Sony ain't bad! Much better than you might think.

I did a demo disk for a local classical guitarist a few months back and was planning on recording both ways, but for some reason I can't remember at the moment I didn't use the Sony so I don't have a good comparison at hand, unfortunately.

One thing I did do was to have a metal adapter made up so I could mount the Sony in a shock mount on a mic stand and I think this made it much more usable.

Anyhow, just a suggestion that you might want to look into.

Hi Jim,
I've been seriously thinking of getting the Sony D50 from your recommendation. I'm wondering if it works as a regular microphone that I can plug directly in my XH-A1 with XLR cables as well.
I've seen some recorders on the market that have XLR inputs, are these for use with other mics?

If the Sony won't work for that can you recommend a unit that will? Also are ther recorders that have rechargable batteries, instead of buying new ones all the time?

Michael Thames · August 2nd, 2009, 09:09 AM

I guess I should have just asked if the Sony D50 can also be used as a mic for the A1.

Michael

Jim Andrada · August 2nd, 2009, 12:31 PM

Hi Michael

Interesting question. I never would have thought of that one.

I checked, and the line out jack is hot when recording so I guess it would be possible.

However, I wouldn't recommend using it that way. because by going to the camera you'd be degrading the sound. The Sony captures at 96k Hz per second and 24 bits PCM uncompressed whereas I think the camera would be at 48k Hz and 16 bit compressed, so right away there would be a degradation in quality. Also, by going through the Sony's pre-amps and A to D and then D to A and then into the camera's A to D (and maybe through the camera pre-amps - not sure if they bypass the pre-amp on line in or just put a pad in-line and then make the trip through the camera pre-amps anyhow) you're running through a lot of electronics which inevitably adds noise at every step.

Much better to just import the PCM audio from the recorder into your editing package and line it up with the video, I think. You might want to use the camera mic to make it easy to synchronize the two, but I think for what you"re doing the sync doesn't have to be as precise as for lip-sync - a frame or so off I don't think anyone would notice. (I might be wrong!)

Re batteries - I got a really rather good recharging unit (Powerex) and I use rechargeables for the Sony and for my Sound Devices mixer. They work fine.

As I had mentioned, I'll be in Sante Fe in a couple of weeks and would be happy to bring the Sony as well as the Schoeps mics for you to compare.

Michael Thames · August 2nd, 2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Hi Michael

Interesting question. I never would have thought of that one.

I checked, and the line out jack is hot when recording so I guess it would be possible.

However, I wouldn't recommend using it that way. because by going to the camera you'd be degrading the sound. The Sony captures at 96k Hz per second and 24 bits PCM uncompressed whereas I think the camera would be at 48k Hz and 16 bit compressed, so right away there would be a degradation in quality. Also, by going through the Sony's pre-amps and A to D and then D to A and then into the camera's A to D (and maybe through the camera pre-amps - not sure if they bypass the pre-amp on line in or just put a pad in-line and then make the trip through the camera pre-amps anyhow) you're running through a lot of electronics which inevitably adds noise at every step.

Much better to just import the PCM audio from the recorder into your editing package and line it up with the video, I think. You might want to use the camera mic to make it easy to synchronize the two, but I think for what you"re doing the sync doesn't have to be as precise as for lip-sync - a frame or so off I don't think anyone would notice. (I might be wrong!)

Re batteries - I got a really rather good recharging unit (Powerex) and I use rechargeables for the Sony and for my Sound Devices mixer. They work fine.

As I had mentioned, I'll be in Sante Fe in a couple of weeks and would be happy to bring the Sony as well as the Schoeps mics for you to compare.

OK so it seems the Sony is not really suitable for this. I was wondering more in the case of an emergency situation where plugging into the Sony would be better than the Mic onboard the XH-A1.

Thanks for helping with this.

Yes by all means lets get together when you are here in Santa Fe. Better to email me at this address.
michaelthames1@mac.com

505 474 6628

Michael Thames · August 2nd, 2009, 03:25 PM

One more question Jim, then I'll leave you alone on this Sunday afternoon. Does the Sony work as a interface for the computer. In other words can I use it as a plug in mic for doing voice overs or narration in Soundtrack or Garageband?

Michael

Jim Andrada · August 3rd, 2009, 01:50 AM

Michael

Don't worry about my schedule - My real job is as a business development consultant for Japanese companies with US partnerships so I work almost Japan time - it's already Monday in Tokyo so this makes a nice break between phone calls across the Pacific!

I think the only reasonable way to use the Sony is to record to it and then upload the files to the PC over USB. No reason you couldn't use it for voice over, but it would be best to record to a file and then upload it.

I think though that there are probably better mics for VO. I'm quite happy with my (reasonably priced) Rode NT2-A in Omni mode and I have a small cigar sized unit that has an XLR connector on one end and a USB interface on the other - it's called a micport pro and it works very well indeed - even provides phantom power to any XLR mic. Link follows.

CEntrance -> MicPort Pro

The Schoeps CMC641 is also great for voice (and other things) as Ty says, but it's pricey.

Michael Thames · August 4th, 2009, 09:45 AM

[QUOTE=Jim Andrada;1180155]Michael

Don't worry about my schedule - My real job is as a business development consultant for Japanese companies with US partnerships so I work almost Japan time - it's already Monday in Tokyo so this makes a nice break between phone calls across the Pacific!

I think the only reasonable way to use the Sony is to record to it and then upload the files to the PC over USB. No reason you couldn't use it for voice over, but it would be best to record to a file and then upload it.

I think though that there are probably better mics for VO. I'm quite happy with my (reasonably priced) Rode NT2-A in Omni mode and I have a small cigar sized unit that has an XLR connector on one end and a USB interface on the other - it's called a micport pro and it works very well indeed - even provides phantom power to any XLR mic. Link follows.

What A great job you have. I've spent a lot of time on that side of the pond, and love it over there.

Well thanks to your recommendations I bought the Sony D50, should get here tomorrow. After going back in the archives here, I came across your post comparing the Scheops, and the Sony D50, very interesting, considering the investment. For me at this point I think the Sony d50 will be much more useful for my purposes.

My wife, and her girlfriend, went to the Opera last night, (starts way too late for my tastes). They came home early, it was a modern opera, (dang, I forget the name) and my wife being Italian likes the classic Italian composers. Wonderful production, and setting out doors and up on the hill.

When I was a teenager I was a bellboy at the Inn At Lorretto here in Santa Fe. I remember taking Nino Rota's ( wrote music for Fellini's films) bags up. He was premiering an Opera that year in Santa Fe. I asked him to come and hear me play classical guitar during "happy hour" in the bar.

I was a bellboy by day, and played guitar there by night great job, in those days.

Jim Andrada · August 5th, 2009, 03:13 AM

I think you'll be happy with the Sony - most people are pretty satisfied with it.

I'll get in touch before heading to Santa Fe - would still like to come by and say hello. My wife used to be a concert pianist in Japan and was a rehearsal pianist for San Jose Opera for several years when we lived in the Bay area. I'm purely an amateur musician and play tuba in a British style brass band. I studied classical guitar for a few years, but never had enough talent or dexterity (or dedication???) to play well so I gave it up.

July 26th, 2009, 06:57 PM	#95
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Jimmy, The u 89 looks like a jr version of the u 87. Even stubbier and fatter is the TLM 170. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

July 27th, 2009, 06:20 AM	#97
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	I was in my current studio when I reviewed the m149 for Pro Audio Review. I've been here almost 12 years, so not the 1980s. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

July 26th, 2009, 12:59 PM	#91
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	The TLM170 is a bit stubbier and was quite popular in the 80s - but it could even then have been a number of vintage Neumanns - not much point guessing, I suppose?

July 26th, 2009, 04:29 PM	#92
Jimmy Tuffrey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bristol U.K. Posts: 244	There were 3 identical ones. They where that shape but the pattern selector was rotary but on the side. You slid it left to right. Not a little rotary knob but more like a focus ring. Maybe I will never know.

July 26th, 2009, 05:04 PM	#93
Mike Demmers Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Portland OR Posts: 159	Normally I set up a vocal mic with the pop screen about 8 inches from the mic, and use all the techniques mentioned. Ninety eight percent of the time, that works. But not always. Vocalists do not always stay put, and I have had them push the pop screen right into the mic, and stand on their tiptoes to reach up to a mic, etc. Here is a not uncommon situation with rock albums: It's the last day of tracking. The lead vocals are the last thing done (common), we are doing the last vocal. If on analog 24 track (lots of rock still done that way), we have only one track left, and are actually recording over the scratch vocal. It's a big, loud, screamer production number, which the vocalist has saved for last because he knows he is going to shred his voice doing it. If I'm lucky, he will tell me something like 'the next take is going to be much louder - and I can only do this -once- before my voice is shredded'. I have then exactly ONE chance to get this performance. The singer is going to go to a place where he is completely immersed in his performance. He is very likely to move around his mic position, studio technique will NOT be what is on his mind, and he is likely to revert to whatever he is used to doing in his live performance, which may mean gettng right on top of the mic. In such a situation, I will put the mic in omni mode to reduce the potential for pops and reduce problems with changing frequency response as he moves around. There are a few situations where it is actually appropriate to have a vocalist right on top of the mic. For example, if I have a very good singer, with lots of control, with a very wide dynamic range, who has very skilled mic technique, doing certains kinds of material which may go from practically a whisper to very strong - there is a certain kind of extreme presence which you can get this way which is just stunning. I have also used figure 8 pattern on lead vocals, typically to null out some extraneous sound source or the side wall first reflections while deliberately picking up some more distant room sound. I have used every common studio mic pattern on lead vocals in different circumstances, with the sole exception of the hypercardioid pattern (hence my interest in Ty's earlier mention of good results with this - I would not have expected this) (Nor have I used a shotgun for a lead vocal, or a parabolic, or a lav, which I also would not expect to sound very good). The point I am trying to make (in the context of this thread) is this: there is more than one 'correct' way to do it, and having a multi-pattern mic may be useful enough to justify the expense, because it gives you more options. I would -personally- find having just ONE pattern (in this case the cmc641 hypercardioid), no matter how wonderful the mic, a little too limiting. I have seen too many people use cardioid mics for EVERYTHING. If you want to start a heated discussion amongst engineers, just get them together and mention 'mics' and 'mic technique'. If you want to see actual blood to flow, also mention 'studio monitors'. ;-) That's my $0.02 -Mike

July 27th, 2009, 02:48 AM	#96
Jimmy Tuffrey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bristol U.K. Posts: 244	They must have been M 149's. Interesting. Except I'm not sure it was available in the late '80's. Actually I went to that page a few years ago Mike and came to the same non conclusion... Definitely looked like the same mic though.

August 2nd, 2009, 09:09 AM	#99
Michael Thames Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Santa Fe, NM USA Posts: 396	I guess I should have just asked if the Sony D50 can also be used as a mic for the A1. Michael

August 2nd, 2009, 12:31 PM	#100
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Hi Michael Interesting question. I never would have thought of that one. I checked, and the line out jack is hot when recording so I guess it would be possible. However, I wouldn't recommend using it that way. because by going to the camera you'd be degrading the sound. The Sony captures at 96k Hz per second and 24 bits PCM uncompressed whereas I think the camera would be at 48k Hz and 16 bit compressed, so right away there would be a degradation in quality. Also, by going through the Sony's pre-amps and A to D and then D to A and then into the camera's A to D (and maybe through the camera pre-amps - not sure if they bypass the pre-amp on line in or just put a pad in-line and then make the trip through the camera pre-amps anyhow) you're running through a lot of electronics which inevitably adds noise at every step. Much better to just import the PCM audio from the recorder into your editing package and line it up with the video, I think. You might want to use the camera mic to make it easy to synchronize the two, but I think for what you"re doing the sync doesn't have to be as precise as for lip-sync - a frame or so off I don't think anyone would notice. (I might be wrong!) Re batteries - I got a really rather good recharging unit (Powerex) and I use rechargeables for the Sony and for my Sound Devices mixer. They work fine. As I had mentioned, I'll be in Sante Fe in a couple of weeks and would be happy to bring the Sony as well as the Schoeps mics for you to compare.

August 2nd, 2009, 03:25 PM	#102
Michael Thames Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Santa Fe, NM USA Posts: 396	One more question Jim, then I'll leave you alone on this Sunday afternoon. Does the Sony work as a interface for the computer. In other words can I use it as a plug in mic for doing voice overs or narration in Soundtrack or Garageband? Michael

August 3rd, 2009, 01:50 AM	#103
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Michael Don't worry about my schedule - My real job is as a business development consultant for Japanese companies with US partnerships so I work almost Japan time - it's already Monday in Tokyo so this makes a nice break between phone calls across the Pacific! I think the only reasonable way to use the Sony is to record to it and then upload the files to the PC over USB. No reason you couldn't use it for voice over, but it would be best to record to a file and then upload it. I think though that there are probably better mics for VO. I'm quite happy with my (reasonably priced) Rode NT2-A in Omni mode and I have a small cigar sized unit that has an XLR connector on one end and a USB interface on the other - it's called a micport pro and it works very well indeed - even provides phantom power to any XLR mic. Link follows. CEntrance -> MicPort Pro The Schoeps CMC641 is also great for voice (and other things) as Ty says, but it's pricey.

August 4th, 2009, 09:45 AM	#104
Michael Thames Major Player Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Santa Fe, NM USA Posts: 396	[QUOTE=Jim Andrada;1180155]Michael Don't worry about my schedule - My real job is as a business development consultant for Japanese companies with US partnerships so I work almost Japan time - it's already Monday in Tokyo so this makes a nice break between phone calls across the Pacific! I think the only reasonable way to use the Sony is to record to it and then upload the files to the PC over USB. No reason you couldn't use it for voice over, but it would be best to record to a file and then upload it. I think though that there are probably better mics for VO. I'm quite happy with my (reasonably priced) Rode NT2-A in Omni mode and I have a small cigar sized unit that has an XLR connector on one end and a USB interface on the other - it's called a micport pro and it works very well indeed - even provides phantom power to any XLR mic. Link follows. What A great job you have. I've spent a lot of time on that side of the pond, and love it over there. Well thanks to your recommendations I bought the Sony D50, should get here tomorrow. After going back in the archives here, I came across your post comparing the Scheops, and the Sony D50, very interesting, considering the investment. For me at this point I think the Sony d50 will be much more useful for my purposes. My wife, and her girlfriend, went to the Opera last night, (starts way too late for my tastes). They came home early, it was a modern opera, (dang, I forget the name) and my wife being Italian likes the classic Italian composers. Wonderful production, and setting out doors and up on the hill. When I was a teenager I was a bellboy at the Inn At Lorretto here in Santa Fe. I remember taking Nino Rota's ( wrote music for Fellini's films) bags up. He was premiering an Opera that year in Santa Fe. I asked him to come and hear me play classical guitar during "happy hour" in the bar. I was a bellboy by day, and played guitar there by night great job, in those days.

August 5th, 2009, 03:13 AM	#105
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	I think you'll be happy with the Sony - most people are pretty satisfied with it. I'll get in touch before heading to Santa Fe - would still like to come by and say hello. My wife used to be a concert pianist in Japan and was a rehearsal pianist for San Jose Opera for several years when we lived in the Bay area. I'm purely an amateur musician and play tuba in a British style brass band. I studied classical guitar for a few years, but never had enough talent or dexterity (or dedication???) to play well so I gave it up.