Best mic for recording guitar?

Andy Balla · July 6th, 2009, 04:46 PM

Can't say that I have, Ty. I was meaning that of the mics I have, the AT 4040 sounds best on his guitar. Schoeps are on the list, once there's money for them! Then there's the rest of the signal chain to consider...

Ty Ford · July 6th, 2009, 05:38 PM

Andy,

Not trying to kick sand on the AT4040. AT makes some VERY nice mics. But, when you have time and inclination, rent a cmc641 for a few days. My entire approach to mics changed when I heard a cmc641 though a GML preamp.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ray Bell · July 6th, 2009, 07:39 PM

Hey ty, just curious how I could get a copy of two of your songs to use in a slide show
I'm working on.. not commercial just for my own pleasure...

The songs are Blue Sky Cowboy Dream and Look Ma, I'm Flyin'

Very well done....

thanks

Andy Balla · July 6th, 2009, 09:33 PM

Ty...I need to up my game regarding pre-amps and conversion before I mess with anything like a Schoeps. What's the point of running a mic like that through a $160 pre and a $200 converter? For me, at this stage of the game, that would seem like a waste of time. I haven't heard better yet, but I know I'm missing something, and I look forward to the day the veil is lifted for good! Andy

David Rogers · July 6th, 2009, 10:16 PM

Michael, may I also suggest you check out ribbon mics. They can be had for prices beginning around $100-to several thousand dollars. The only down side is a good preamp is needed. Check out the AEA, Coles, or Royer ribbons. Then combine them with a Gordon or Forssell preamps, this is assuming you want to spend a load of money!!!

I am using a pair of Apex 205 ribbons that I had modded by Michael Jolly. The Apex ribbons can be had for $100-120 and the MJ mod is $219. Add a AEA TRP and you are in business for about $1200 new. The TRP shows up from time to time for $700-800 used.

No they are not Schoeps, but they have a unique character of their own.

David Rogers

Ty Ford · July 7th, 2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Balla

Ty...I need to up my game regarding pre-amps and conversion before I mess with anything like a Schoeps. What's the point of running a mic like that through a $160 pre and a $200 converter? For me, at this stage of the game, that would seem like a waste of time. I haven't heard better yet, but I know I'm missing something, and I look forward to the day the veil is lifted for good! Andy

Andy,

It's a game of steps. I originally started with a Digi001, got GML preamps, got an REM AD-I 8 converter. Somewhere after there, I tried the Schoeps. I am on record in many places saying this. The difference was both subtle and profound. When I heard the difference I remember thinking every thing I know about audio up until then had been wrong.

I still think you'd be interested in renting a cmc641, even with your setup. I think DreamHire in NY rents them.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty Ford · July 7th, 2009, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Rogers

Michael, may I also suggest you check out ribbon mics. They can be had for prices beginning around $100-to several thousand dollars. The only down side is a good preamp is needed. Check out the AEA, Coles, or Royer ribbons. Then combine them with a Gordon or Forssell preamps, this is assuming you want to spend a load of money!!!

I am using a pair of Apex 205 ribbons that I had modded by Michael Jolly. The Apex ribbons can be had for $100-120 and the MJ mod is $219. Add a AEA TRP and you are in business for about $1200 new. The TRP shows up from time to time for $700-800 used.

No they are not Schoeps, but they have a unique character of their own.

David Rogers

David,

Yes, a unique character. I own a 77DX, m160 and an AEA R84 with TRP preamp I bought earlier this year. Of the three, the R84 gives me the best results. A while back I was recording sax for a song here. I tried the M160 and the cmc641. In a heartbeat, the cmc641 won. Here's a compressed version of the mix. http://tinyurl.com/ku66nc

I wrote a feature story about the history of the ribbon mics some years back for Pro Audio Review. http://idisk.mac.com/tyreeford-Public/Ribbon_Mics.txt

All ribbons have a pretty limited HF response, so if you're looking for bright and shiny, don't go there. The exceptions being the beyer M260 and m500 which aren't around anymore.

Ribbons are mostly used to take the edge off of something. I tracked vocals last year with Karyn Oliver. I used a U 89 and the R84 together and mixed the tracks. The result was pretty subtle, but the R84 added some thickness/smoothness to the midrange that I liked.

Regards,

Ty Ford

David Rogers · July 7th, 2009, 09:42 AM

I agree with you Ty. I too have a number of Schoeps products. My favourite location mic series.

Regards
David

Jim Andrada · July 7th, 2009, 10:49 AM

Have you tried the Schoeps wide cardioids? I like them for brass band stuff - Eb cornets in the wrong hands can be extremely shrill. Of course, lots of personal preference going on.

Michael Thames · July 8th, 2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Rogers

Michael, may I also suggest you check out ribbon mics. They can be had for prices beginning around $100-to several thousand dollars. The only down side is a good preamp is needed. Check out the AEA, Coles, or Royer ribbons. Then combine them with a Gordon or Forssell preamps, this is assuming you want to spend a load of money!!!

I am using a pair of Apex 205 ribbons that I had modded by Michael Jolly. The Apex ribbons can be had for $100-120 and the MJ mod is $219. Add a AEA TRP and you are in business for about $1200 new. The TRP shows up from time to time for $700-800 used.

No they are not Schoeps, but they have a unique character of their own.

David Rogers

Thanks David I'll look into those. I've heard of some kinda set up using a ribbon mic ( to catch the room ambiance) along with something like a Schoeps..... three mics total.

The problem with guitar is catching those high end trebles, as Ty mentioned. I think just about any decent mic will capture good bass and midrange. However, when I first heard the Schoeps I was struck by the purity, and sparkly trebles, it is hard to go back now, I've been corrupted...... in a good way.

Oddly enough it's a comparison I use with my customers to illustrate the difference between a good classical guitar. and a great classical guitar. It's all in the trebles! A guitar by default has good bass, to tweak the treble is what separates the men from the boys.

Are these ribbon mics?
YouTube - Allegro in d minor by Weiss

Michael

Michael Thames · July 8th, 2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Thanks Michael,

Two thoughts. The Canon XL2 is standard def. As such the audio is 16-bit, 48khz. (about 1500 kbps)

Your XH-A1 does standard def, per the above, but also HDV. HDV audio is only 384 kbps MPEG 1 layer 2. Stick with Standard Def and your audio will sound better.

I used only one mic for that recording and added effects later; two different reverbs, as I recall. They gave it the space.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty, I wonder if one Schoeps is better than two average mics? Personally I don't mind a guitar recorded with just one mic. Again great recording. I've never used SD on my A1, but the image you got looks excellent! I wonder for Youtube if there is any noticeable different using SD as opposed to HDV.

For me the biggest difference is the settings used to compress it for uploading.

Michael

Ty Ford · July 8th, 2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

Ty, I wonder if one Schoeps is better than two average mics? Personally I don't mind a guitar recorded with just one mic. Again great recording. I've never used SD on my A1, but the image you got looks excellent! I wonder for Youtube if there is any noticeable different using SD as opposed to HDV.

For me the biggest difference is the settings used to compress it for uploading.

Michael

Michael,

Yes, one Schoeps is better than two or twenty-two average mics. Compression settings are important. I constantly play with them to try to eek out a better product.

Thanks for the compliment on the video. It does keep people coming in to get on the internet.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty Ford · July 8th, 2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Andrada

Have you tried the Schoeps wide cardioids? I like them for brass band stuff - Eb cornets in the wrong hands can be extremely shrill. Of course, lots of personal preference going on.

Jim,

Less than you might think. I was surprised when the schoeps won out over the ribbon for sax. I really like what it did. If Schoeps were just the product of whim and preference, they wouldn't cost what they do.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Jimmy Tuffrey · July 9th, 2009, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Thames

Thanks David I'll look into those. I've heard of some kinda set up using a ribbon mic ( to catch the room ambiance) along with something like a Schoeps..... three mics total.

The problem with guitar is catching those high end trebles, as Ty mentioned. I think just about any decent mic will capture good bass and midrange. However, when I first heard the Schoeps I was struck by the purity, and sparkly trebles, it is hard to go back now, I've been corrupted...... in a good way.

Oddly enough it's a comparison I use with my customers to illustrate the difference between a good classical guitar. and a great classical guitar. It's all in the trebles! A guitar by default has good bass, to tweak the treble is what separates the men from the boys.

Are these ribbon mics?
YouTube - Allegro in d minor by Weiss

Michael

Got to beg to differ about this. It is my belief and experience that a good acoustic, either steel or nylon string designs, is characterised by an even balance across the whole of it's range from low to high and that a warm bass response which is balanced with the rest of the instruments range is not a given. A lot of lesser classical/spanish/nylon string instruments appear fine in the treble register, say above the F on 3rd string at tenth fret, but lack a good depth of tone, including a good bass response created from the instruments top resonating, and it is only the very best instruments which have an even tonal response across all registers whilst embodying a warm tone with it as opposed to an even response which is a bit tame or dull. The main achievement is evenness, The sam goes with loudspeakers and microphones.

Is it all in the treble? No. A cheap piano sounds good in the treble too but lacks the depth and evenness... here we go again. It is the same for most instruments. Maybe all.

Ty Ford · July 9th, 2009, 06:03 AM

So as not to be misconstrued, among the reasons I really like the cmc641 are that it has some pretty serious attention to detail in the midrange.

According to players of classical guitar with nylon strings I've talked to, the biggest problem is plasticky sounding 1st and 2nd strings. That's partially because these strings are unwound. Using condenser mics with a lifted top end response makes the strings sound more plasticky. The cmc641 tends not to.

Ribbon mics with their rolled off high frequency response would tend to do something sort of similar, but usually come off too cloudy or dull in the top end.

Regards,

Ty Ford

July 6th, 2009, 05:38 PM	#47
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Andy, Not trying to kick sand on the AT4040. AT makes some VERY nice mics. But, when you have time and inclination, rent a cmc641 for a few days. My entire approach to mics changed when I heard a cmc641 though a GML preamp. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

July 6th, 2009, 10:16 PM	#50
David Rogers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Nashvegas, TN Posts: 79	Microphone Michael, may I also suggest you check out ribbon mics. They can be had for prices beginning around $100-to several thousand dollars. The only down side is a good preamp is needed. Check out the AEA, Coles, or Royer ribbons. Then combine them with a Gordon or Forssell preamps, this is assuming you want to spend a load of money!!! I am using a pair of Apex 205 ribbons that I had modded by Michael Jolly. The Apex ribbons can be had for $100-120 and the MJ mod is $219. Add a AEA TRP and you are in business for about $1200 new. The TRP shows up from time to time for $700-800 used. No they are not Schoeps, but they have a unique character of their own. David Rogers

July 9th, 2009, 06:03 AM	#60
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	So as not to be misconstrued, among the reasons I really like the cmc641 are that it has some pretty serious attention to detail in the midrange. According to players of classical guitar with nylon strings I've talked to, the biggest problem is plasticky sounding 1st and 2nd strings. That's partially because these strings are unwound. Using condenser mics with a lifted top end response makes the strings sound more plasticky. The cmc641 tends not to. Ribbon mics with their rolled off high frequency response would tend to do something sort of similar, but usually come off too cloudy or dull in the top end. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

July 6th, 2009, 04:46 PM	#46
Andy Balla Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 182	Can't say that I have, Ty. I was meaning that of the mics I have, the AT 4040 sounds best on his guitar. Schoeps are on the list, once there's money for them! Then there's the rest of the signal chain to consider...

July 6th, 2009, 07:39 PM	#48
Ray Bell Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,414	Hey ty, just curious how I could get a copy of two of your songs to use in a slide show I'm working on.. not commercial just for my own pleasure... The songs are Blue Sky Cowboy Dream and Look Ma, I'm Flyin' Very well done.... thanks

July 6th, 2009, 09:33 PM	#49
Andy Balla Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Asheville NC Posts: 182	Ty...I need to up my game regarding pre-amps and conversion before I mess with anything like a Schoeps. What's the point of running a mic like that through a $160 pre and a $200 converter? For me, at this stage of the game, that would seem like a waste of time. I haven't heard better yet, but I know I'm missing something, and I look forward to the day the veil is lifted for good! Andy

July 7th, 2009, 09:42 AM	#53
David Rogers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Nashvegas, TN Posts: 79	I agree with you Ty. I too have a number of Schoeps products. My favourite location mic series. Regards David

July 7th, 2009, 10:49 AM	#54
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Have you tried the Schoeps wide cardioids? I like them for brass band stuff - Eb cornets in the wrong hands can be extremely shrill. Of course, lots of personal preference going on.