Your Dialog Tools and Techniques at DVinfo.net

Imran Zaidi · December 30th, 2003, 12:15 AM

Well, we have a lot of individual posts on this forum where people discuss individual pieces of hardware or techniques and such that they use to get good dialog into their films. But I think it would be helpful if we had a thread where everyone who feels they have achieved very good theatrical sound jumped in and discussed briefly their process and tools used to achieve it.

In this case, by theatrical sound, I mean dialog that is most like, say, a professional film. Getting good location dialog audio can be really difficult, and all too often the dialog you collect can seem thin or echoey, etc. As opposed to interviews, generally boom mics are recommended for this and not lavs, but they also seem the hardest to get 'filmy' sound out of.

Tools, tips and tricks would be appreciated. In other words:

- What did you use to record? (i.e. mics, mixers, cams)
- How did you record it? (i.e. techniques)
- What did you do in post to make it happen? (i.e. software, ADR)
- Anything other wisdom to impart? Samples of your work online if you have any?

Rob Lohman · January 1st, 2004, 10:59 AM

Did you look into books on the subject? The audio world is not
my playing ground, so I can't recommend anything on this. But,
someone else might tune in with some book tips or other info.

Oleg Kaizerman · January 1st, 2004, 01:22 PM

go to the rec.art.movie.production . sound
group in google groups and start read
there are thousends of issius that you can memorize or buy abook

Imran Zaidi · January 2nd, 2004, 03:31 PM

I was just trying to get real world cases about the folks in our community here. I know folks like Jay Rose have books on the subject - but I also know that many in this community don't necessarily have $10,000+ to spend on audio, but may still be doing very well for themselves as filmmakers, not just as videographers. Just wanted to get their process and experience out there.

Charles Papert · January 2nd, 2004, 04:01 PM

Imran:

I have only a basic working knowledge of sound, and most of what I know is based on what I've picked up from the sound guys I work with day after day, but the one thing I've seen happen on many low-budg films is that the mike is just too far away, or not even properly pointed at the person who is speaking. This seems very obvious but I think there may be an assumption that a "shotgun" mike will work just as well from 10 feet away as it will from five feet. In general, the boomperson needs to work with the camera operator to get the mike as close to the frame line as possible, and the mike needs to be pointed at the speaker's mouth. If two people are speaking, then the mike needs to be cued between them, which requires the boom operator to learn the lines.

I hope this doesn't sound condescending to our gentle readers, it's not meant that way at all.

My own sound package includes a Sennheiser 416, which is a nice all-purpose production workhorse. One of the reasons that film sound is so good is that the sound recordist or boom operator will select a different type of mike for any given scene or setup based on the type of room, distance to the actors etc. I based my decision by talking to a veteran recordist and asking him what he thought would be the best all-purpose affordable mike for a low-maintenance, low tech approach, which turned out to be the 416 (cost me $375 on eBay).

Other sound tricks that come to mind: laying down carpet out of the shot for boomy/echoey rooms to cut down on sound reflection; being anal about minimizing background noise (turning off refrigerators, computer hard drives etc) to get clean tracks; and keeping actors from overlapping their lines to make editing easier.

Imran Zaidi · January 2nd, 2004, 07:23 PM

That's all great advice, thanks Charles. I definitely want to try the carpet thing as I think that's what plagues most locations. I do think you're right about being anal in general - I've worked as a boom operator on many DV shoots, and while the first few times I was timid - I learned quickly that you really have to not be afraid to hold things up a bit if it just doesn't sound right. The Editor will kiss you for it later.

December 30th, 2003, 12:15 AM	#1
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	Your Audio Tools and Techniques Well, we have a lot of individual posts on this forum where people discuss individual pieces of hardware or techniques and such that they use to get good dialog into their films. But I think it would be helpful if we had a thread where everyone who feels they have achieved very good theatrical sound jumped in and discussed briefly their process and tools used to achieve it. In this case, by theatrical sound, I mean dialog that is most like, say, a professional film. Getting good location dialog audio can be really difficult, and all too often the dialog you collect can seem thin or echoey, etc. As opposed to interviews, generally boom mics are recommended for this and not lavs, but they also seem the hardest to get 'filmy' sound out of. Tools, tips and tricks would be appreciated. In other words: - What did you use to record? (i.e. mics, mixers, cams) - How did you record it? (i.e. techniques) - What did you do in post to make it happen? (i.e. software, ADR) - Anything other wisdom to impart? Samples of your work online if you have any?

January 1st, 2004, 10:59 AM	#2
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Did you look into books on the subject? The audio world is not my playing ground, so I can't recommend anything on this. But, someone else might tune in with some book tips or other info. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 2nd, 2004, 04:01 PM	#5
Charles Papert Wrangler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 6,810	Imran: I have only a basic working knowledge of sound, and most of what I know is based on what I've picked up from the sound guys I work with day after day, but the one thing I've seen happen on many low-budg films is that the mike is just too far away, or not even properly pointed at the person who is speaking. This seems very obvious but I think there may be an assumption that a "shotgun" mike will work just as well from 10 feet away as it will from five feet. In general, the boomperson needs to work with the camera operator to get the mike as close to the frame line as possible, and the mike needs to be pointed at the speaker's mouth. If two people are speaking, then the mike needs to be cued between them, which requires the boom operator to learn the lines. I hope this doesn't sound condescending to our gentle readers, it's not meant that way at all. My own sound package includes a Sennheiser 416, which is a nice all-purpose production workhorse. One of the reasons that film sound is so good is that the sound recordist or boom operator will select a different type of mike for any given scene or setup based on the type of room, distance to the actors etc. I based my decision by talking to a veteran recordist and asking him what he thought would be the best all-purpose affordable mike for a low-maintenance, low tech approach, which turned out to be the 416 (cost me $375 on eBay). Other sound tricks that come to mind: laying down carpet out of the shot for boomy/echoey rooms to cut down on sound reflection; being anal about minimizing background noise (turning off refrigerators, computer hard drives etc) to get clean tracks; and keeping actors from overlapping their lines to make editing easier. __________________ Charles Papert www.charlespapert.com

January 1st, 2004, 01:22 PM	#3
Oleg Kaizerman Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: israel Posts: 296	go to the rec.art.movie.production . sound group in google groups and start read there are thousends of issius that you can memorize or buy abook

January 2nd, 2004, 03:31 PM	#4
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	I was just trying to get real world cases about the folks in our community here. I know folks like Jay Rose have books on the subject - but I also know that many in this community don't necessarily have $10,000+ to spend on audio, but may still be doing very well for themselves as filmmakers, not just as videographers. Just wanted to get their process and experience out there.

January 2nd, 2004, 07:23 PM	#6
Imran Zaidi Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 1,315	That's all great advice, thanks Charles. I definitely want to try the carpet thing as I think that's what plagues most locations. I do think you're right about being anal in general - I've worked as a boom operator on many DV shoots, and while the first few times I was timid - I learned quickly that you really have to not be afraid to hold things up a bit if it just doesn't sound right. The Editor will kiss you for it later.