Shoot Out: ME64 vs. AT4073 vs. AT4071 vs. Nuemann KM 184 vs. CS-1

Bryan Beasleigh · December 30th, 2003, 08:29 PM

Carlos, Jay,
I believe both of you have a much greater access to different models and brands of microphone than we may have. The oportunity to listen to the various mics is a whole lot more than we hgad access to before. When i'm trying out the mics, it's not possible to record everything that i do. The dealer i buy at lets me A/B various mics and we will even do blind comparisons. We line up 4 or 5 mics on stands and listen through 7506 phones.

If i listen to a microphone and i just don't like it's sound, then it's game over. I'm not using it in an anechoic chamber and personally don;t care if the sensitivety on one is greater than the other. I listen to the sound , noise and background noise.

Some people like the 8035 over the ME66, yet the AT is much more inexpensive. I've spent some time trying various mics and have taped several examples of each and under different conditions. I know what i don't like more than the opposite.

The Mics that have bitten me in the butt so far are the AT899 Lav, the AKG D230 dynamic, The oktava 012 with cardoid, the Rode NT2000 and the Microtech Gefell M300. I will most likely hate these mics in certain circumstances and fall back on some of my other stuff. maybe even buy more (perish the thought)_

I will have an oportunity to try the CS1 hooked up beside what ever i choose. Based on what i've heard so far, I think I lean towards the warmth of the 4073.

What's wrong in disliking the neumann ksm 184, sorry, i just don't like it. i love the gefell m300. They both come from the same origins yet sound very different. I'm into ambient sound and dialog, perhaps if I was a musician i'd feel differently.

So to all of you that say "How unscientific", I say it's a far sight better than all of the magazine reviews and ,most certainly better than a sharp stick in the eye.

My favorite test involves a bottle of single malt scotch and a quiet hotel room. I'm a field engineer and spend far too many nights in hotels. Sometimes I'll get a mic to try and spend the evening just listening to whatever i can.

Dan Bohman · December 30th, 2003, 10:24 PM

well put, bryan. well put.

Helen Bach · December 31st, 2003, 11:35 AM

Carlos,

The AT 4073 and 4071 are true condenser mics, not pre-polarised. As you say, AT do not distinguish between the different types in their on-line literature. Bad AT! Naughty AT!

Best,
Helen

Carlos E. Martinez · December 31st, 2003, 12:54 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh :
What's wrong in disliking the neumann ksm 184, sorry, i just don't like it. i love the gefell m300. They both come from the same origins yet sound very different. I'm into ambient sound and dialog, perhaps if I was a musician i'd feel differently.

So to all of you that say "How unscientific", I say it's a far sight better than all of the magazine reviews and ,most certainly better than a sharp stick in the eye.
-->>>

Nobody said your work was unscientific, as empirical observations are usually the basis for scientific findings.

But even them have rules, so as to be able to be repeated following the same proceedings by others and get the same results.

Of course almost nobody has access to an anechoic room to measure an instrument, and that's why certain parameters are not really considered.

So even if may have sounded as an attack my observations didn't try to be. It happens that in order to help people to pick tools there are several cares that should be taken.

Comparison tests are always interesting and I try to read them whenever I can. Particularly in this case when the people doing them are the ones we know from interchanging ideas here.

Particularly Brian, with whom I also interchanged e-mails privately and would like to continue to do so.

So please take my comments as a friendly one. By trying to put up my ideas on how things should be done I am trying to make the tests better, not to kill them.

There's absolutely nothing wrong in liking or disliking certain microphones. When I started doing location sound, and dynamics were very much used, people used to love the Beyer M88. And I hated it, my personal favourite being the AKG D-224 which almost nobody used.

We are talking dialogue mics here, or at least we should to keep variables limited. Ambience microphones are the easiest to find and music microphones the more specific.

In order to suggest productive ways to carry on mic tests, let me suggest this:

1) Pick a single reference mike and compare all others to it.

2) Explain in detail how the test is being done (perhaps I missed this on other thread, did I?)

3) Establish different situations under which the mics are tested, so as people to know what to expect of each mic.

Maybe this is a good way to get to a common basis.

Carlos

Carlos E. Martinez · December 31st, 2003, 01:06 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Helen Bach :
The AT 4073 and 4071 are true condenser mics, not pre-polarised. As you say, AT do not distinguish between the different types in their on-line literature. Bad AT! Naughty AT!
-->>>

Even if I never used them I imagined that. AT's 40XX line is their pricest and most cherished one, so they should be condenser. Price is usually an indication of better materials, except with Oktavas which are true condenser for electret prices.

But AT's attitude is a deceiving one, trying to let people think their capacitor microphones are all the same.

My point on the test questions wasn't that either, as the ME66 is quite respectable in spite of not being true condenser.

All lapel mics are electret, as far as I know, and they are quite good too.

Carlos

Bryan Beasleigh · December 31st, 2003, 01:23 PM

Carlos
I took no offense . Since not everyone has the same lineup I think it advantageous to include more than one comparison.

December 30th, 2003, 10:24 PM	#17
Dan Bohman New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Stafford, VA Posts: 8	well put, bryan. well put. __________________ dB. Cannon GL-2 Sennheisser k6: ME64, ME66 FCP4 on a G4 Life is one big gamble. You just have to choose your bets.

December 30th, 2003, 08:29 PM	#16
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Carlos, Jay, I believe both of you have a much greater access to different models and brands of microphone than we may have. The oportunity to listen to the various mics is a whole lot more than we hgad access to before. When i'm trying out the mics, it's not possible to record everything that i do. The dealer i buy at lets me A/B various mics and we will even do blind comparisons. We line up 4 or 5 mics on stands and listen through 7506 phones. If i listen to a microphone and i just don't like it's sound, then it's game over. I'm not using it in an anechoic chamber and personally don;t care if the sensitivety on one is greater than the other. I listen to the sound , noise and background noise. Some people like the 8035 over the ME66, yet the AT is much more inexpensive. I've spent some time trying various mics and have taped several examples of each and under different conditions. I know what i don't like more than the opposite. The Mics that have bitten me in the butt so far are the AT899 Lav, the AKG D230 dynamic, The oktava 012 with cardoid, the Rode NT2000 and the Microtech Gefell M300. I will most likely hate these mics in certain circumstances and fall back on some of my other stuff. maybe even buy more (perish the thought)_ I will have an oportunity to try the CS1 hooked up beside what ever i choose. Based on what i've heard so far, I think I lean towards the warmth of the 4073. What's wrong in disliking the neumann ksm 184, sorry, i just don't like it. i love the gefell m300. They both come from the same origins yet sound very different. I'm into ambient sound and dialog, perhaps if I was a musician i'd feel differently. So to all of you that say "How unscientific", I say it's a far sight better than all of the magazine reviews and ,most certainly better than a sharp stick in the eye. My favorite test involves a bottle of single malt scotch and a quiet hotel room. I'm a field engineer and spend far too many nights in hotels. Sometimes I'll get a mic to try and spend the evening just listening to whatever i can.

December 31st, 2003, 11:35 AM	#18
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	Carlos, The AT 4073 and 4071 are true condenser mics, not pre-polarised. As you say, AT do not distinguish between the different types in their on-line literature. Bad AT! Naughty AT! Best, Helen

December 31st, 2003, 12:54 PM	#19
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh : What's wrong in disliking the neumann ksm 184, sorry, i just don't like it. i love the gefell m300. They both come from the same origins yet sound very different. I'm into ambient sound and dialog, perhaps if I was a musician i'd feel differently. So to all of you that say "How unscientific", I say it's a far sight better than all of the magazine reviews and ,most certainly better than a sharp stick in the eye. -->>> Nobody said your work was unscientific, as empirical observations are usually the basis for scientific findings. But even them have rules, so as to be able to be repeated following the same proceedings by others and get the same results. Of course almost nobody has access to an anechoic room to measure an instrument, and that's why certain parameters are not really considered. So even if may have sounded as an attack my observations didn't try to be. It happens that in order to help people to pick tools there are several cares that should be taken. Comparison tests are always interesting and I try to read them whenever I can. Particularly in this case when the people doing them are the ones we know from interchanging ideas here. Particularly Brian, with whom I also interchanged e-mails privately and would like to continue to do so. So please take my comments as a friendly one. By trying to put up my ideas on how things should be done I am trying to make the tests better, not to kill them. There's absolutely nothing wrong in liking or disliking certain microphones. When I started doing location sound, and dynamics were very much used, people used to love the Beyer M88. And I hated it, my personal favourite being the AKG D-224 which almost nobody used. We are talking dialogue mics here, or at least we should to keep variables limited. Ambience microphones are the easiest to find and music microphones the more specific. In order to suggest productive ways to carry on mic tests, let me suggest this: 1) Pick a single reference mike and compare all others to it. 2) Explain in detail how the test is being done (perhaps I missed this on other thread, did I?) 3) Establish different situations under which the mics are tested, so as people to know what to expect of each mic. Maybe this is a good way to get to a common basis. Carlos

December 31st, 2003, 01:06 PM	#20
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Helen Bach : The AT 4073 and 4071 are true condenser mics, not pre-polarised. As you say, AT do not distinguish between the different types in their on-line literature. Bad AT! Naughty AT! -->>> Even if I never used them I imagined that. AT's 40XX line is their pricest and most cherished one, so they should be condenser. Price is usually an indication of better materials, except with Oktavas which are true condenser for electret prices. But AT's attitude is a deceiving one, trying to let people think their capacitor microphones are all the same. My point on the test questions wasn't that either, as the ME66 is quite respectable in spite of not being true condenser. All lapel mics are electret, as far as I know, and they are quite good too. Carlos

December 31st, 2003, 01:23 PM	#21
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Carlos I took no offense . Since not everyone has the same lineup I think it advantageous to include more than one comparison.