Building an Audio Kit (wisely)

Dan Brown · December 19th, 2003, 02:47 PM

They are both stamped and signed by the same person, both dated "27-02-03". Serial numbers match those stamped on the mics, which are silver color. Each came with a -10dB pad the screws between the capsule and the body, I left those out. Uhm, Guitar Center is pretty good about returns, I figure I've got 30 days. I hooked them up with headphones, FWIW, they both sound exactly the same. They sounds good to me, mellow and warm. I'm going to try to figure out the mixer levels and do some recording this afternoon. I can already tell the AGC sucks.

Thanks again, everyone :^)

Bryan Beasleigh · December 19th, 2003, 03:37 PM

Methinks you got a good deal.

Martin Garrison · December 20th, 2003, 01:00 PM

Dan,

I'm going to be in DFW this week. Can you tell me which Guitar center you picked those up at? The one in Arlington?

Which capsule did they come with?

Thanks,
Martin

Carlos E. Martinez · December 20th, 2003, 03:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh : Carlos
Ditch the marantz, I doubt it. First , the cards don't compress anything, they store what's loaded onto them. That could be PCM mono or stereo. It may be a compressed format like MP2 or 3. The Flash recorder can be connected to the USB port and files dragged onto my hard drive. Mini disk and DAT is real time. -->>>

Well, maybe I was not too clear on my generalization. The problem with static memory systems is multiple. First of all price: in order to work with non-compressed system the cards have to be large. And large cards carry large prices. If the file is not compressed, like PCM, it will likely be large.

Cards are probably similar to the ones used in photography, which are around $100 for 1GB. How much can you fit in one card? Will you have several cards for a shooting project or one card that you download every day?

I have no problem with real time, I don't see what's the problem with it. Are we in such a rush that we need everything to be instantaneous?

As a matter of fact I loath any recording system that does not allow me using a cheap, widely available media, which preferably allows me one tape or disk for every video tape shot.

It makes me feel safer to know the audio recorded is secure and can't be erased except if on purpose. Not something that is inside a computer HD than can crash and ruin the whole thing.

Flash card based systems were not designed for working in such a way, in my opinion. And as far as I know, portable FC based audio systems are mostly for radio and not for high quality audio recording.

Core Audio sells a high quality system based on a PDA, but it carries all these problems I mentioned. Professional applications are quite limited.

So for film or video work I stand by my words: do ditch the Marantz.

<<<-- While the Marantz mic pre's aren't up to the standard of my sound devices, they aren't bad and the recorder is a whole lot better than a consumer grade setup. I guess if I wanted to I could run the audio through my 302 into the line in on the recorder. -->>>

Of course the Marantz is better than a consumer grade! Nowadays it doesn't take much to design a chip based system that improves a lot on consumer audio.

It's probably even better than most prosumer camera's audio stages, like PD150 or similar.

But I think that you can use a mixer/preamp to go into a camera, into an MD or into a DAT and have more flexibility.

Carlos

Bryan Beasleigh · December 20th, 2003, 06:36 PM

Carlos, that's why they have more than one model of everything, so people can have a choice of features. A 1 gig card is a tad above $200 and will hold just over 3 hours of 44.1 khz PCM audio. Mpg2 192 kbps mono will be 13 hrs 18 minutes.

That works for me. I can burn the audio onto Cd's DVD's or just leave it on the hard drive.

Dan Brown · December 20th, 2003, 10:19 PM

Martin:

Yes, the store in Arlington, on 157, just north of I-30. The Octavas came with cardioid capsules and 10 dB pads. I hear there's a hyper cardioid, but I didn't see them. The Pro-Audio manger is a guy named Kim, he's pretty knowledgable and helpful. They also had the Rode NT3's and Shure 81's among others.

Dan Brown · December 20th, 2003, 10:24 PM

BTW, the Octava mic stand adpaters are pretty useless, they have a non-standard thread size. I did find a RadioShack foam screen that fits them very well.

And, the Behringer '802 mixer hisses like and angry camel, and I'll going to get my $50 back tomorrow. It looks like the Beachtec is a much better choice.

Bryan Beasleigh · December 20th, 2003, 11:43 PM

Dan
Read jay Rose's revirews before you jump into something else. You will need phantom and a mic pre. the beach only has phantom. The oktava has a pretty low sensitivety, you'd be pushing a camera preamp to the limits

The Samsom mixpad is supposedly ok and it's around $170 US, the marenius is a 3 channel mono and is around $330

My mic clips work just fine.

Steve Lehman · December 21st, 2003, 01:21 AM

Does anyone use or know about a Mackie DFX 6?

Carlos E. Martinez · December 21st, 2003, 07:09 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh : Carlos, that's why they have more than one model of everything, so people can have a choice of features. A 1 gig card is a tad above $200 and will hold just over 3 hours of 44.1 khz PCM audio. Mpg2 192 kbps mono will be 13 hrs 18 minutes. -->>>

First of all let's state some standards. PCM audio, 48KHz, 96KHz or 192KHz, 20 or 14 bit it's what we should be striving for.
To go for a compression based system I definitely pick MD and no other.

Second comes the media, that should be picked according to what you are doing. Maybe because I come from the old days, when we worked on Nagras, but I am definitely tainted by a shooting working routine where a day's work is usually defined by one or two tapes. Usually 15 minutes each, which is what we usually shot per day. Maybe because of that but I think such a routine has some merits.

The fact that it wasn't downloaded to anything and kept away as originals is a great thing.

Except on unusual occasions, I'd say it's rare shooting more than 30 minutes per day on any film/video. If someone does, great for them, as long as quality is good enough.

$200 for a media is too high, even if you download it every day. If you do you will be working extra hours, which not many will like to. Three hour capacity is much more than we need also.

Of course having options is great, but I am just pointing on the hows and whys the pro market, particularly location audio, picks certain medias instead of others.

Up to this moment a definite standard for all hasn't been set yet, but DVD audio might be a likely one. Flash cards or removable HDs may become a standard when they get to $30, but I don't know when that will happen.

From what we have around right now, MD seems to be the more affordable and practical media around for non-professionals.

Carlos

Bryan Beasleigh · December 21st, 2003, 12:36 PM

"Up to this moment a definite standard for all hasn't been set yet, but DVD audio might be a likely one. Flash cards or removable HDs may become a standard when they get to $30, but I don't know when that will happen."

As I said. that's why we have a choice. Flash and MD are two different ideas. Marantz stopped manufacturing the MD early this year. DVD or CD are great but lack full portability, they must be stationary to avoid jaring.

Simple solution is you buy what you like and i'll buy what I feel I need.

Martin Garrison · December 21st, 2003, 05:26 PM

"...if you download it every day. If you do you will be working extra hours, which not many will like to."

"I have no problem with real time, I don't see what's the problem with it. Are we in such a rush that we need everything to be instantaneous?"

If you only roll on 30 minutes of stereo 48k 16bit pcm a day, you can transfer all of that to a computer in about four minutes. Then burn two backup CDs in about fifteen more minutes. The flash memory has come down quite a bit over the last year and will probably continue to drop; Dat tape is still about $5.00(U.S.) an hour, CDs are around $0.20(U.S.) an hour. The Tascam DA-P1 is a great and affordable machine, but when was the last time the circuitry or preamps were updated? Maybe 8 years ago. The newly designed Marantz is going to sound better and be more affordable, even with a memory card. And next to the audio circuitry of a PD-150, no comparison.

Does that mean it's necessarrily worth the trouble of running a double system? Probably not all the time. Some projects, location dialogue or interviews will sound good enough recording to the camera, that it is just not worth the time to record double on location, and sync it all back up in post.

If you are going to be recording a double system, and you can't afford a Nagra, or time code dat, or one of the Zaxcom field systems, then the Marantz is an excellent option.

Dan Brown · December 23rd, 2003, 12:49 PM

R. Scott Hanson aske that I keep the thread posted on what I've done...

I have now modified the Behringer preamp (according to Jay Rose's designed) so that the ouputs are attenuated enought to match the mic input on the Pana DV852 (dropped it from +4dBu to -35 dBV). So, the two Oktavas record very nicely now. My Sure SM58 is also an option, but the Oktavas sound amazingly good. I put RadioShack foam screens on them. I have also ordered a BeachTek DXA-6 to use when AC power is unavailable.

I'm so far under budget (was thinking of a $3k camera, but got a $600 unit, and got $50 mics, was thinking of $250 mics), that I'm trying to decide what else to get. Maybe a good shotgun or wireless lav. Perhaps a camera crane or a 12 foot dolly/track set up. Not sure.

I'm presently shooting some elderly family members since they around for the holidays, where they talk about their life stories, ancestors, etc. Using Home Depot halogen work lights shot through makeshift scrim, and with the mics close to the 'talent', the tapes have a very professional quality. No regrets at all. AGC has not been a problem thus far. We'll see once I start using the BeachTek.

So, for now, I'm going to hold off on the Marantz.

I will start doing some trial shots from my 'film', working up camera techniques, blocking, etc.

Hope this helps...

Cheers.

Bryan Beasleigh · December 23rd, 2003, 02:08 PM

Dan
The beach won't give you any amplification, can you get enough gain from your camera pre amp?

Martin Garrison · December 23rd, 2003, 03:39 PM

Money left? Definetly consider, camera support like a DV jib, and a decent light kit.

I'm glad its worked out for you, at a great price too. If you're happy with the way your tapes sound, skip the double record system. All the syncing and keeping detailed logs on the shoot, is a great deal of extra time.

December 19th, 2003, 02:47 PM	#16
Dan Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 235	They are both stamped and signed by the same person, both dated "27-02-03". Serial numbers match those stamped on the mics, which are silver color. Each came with a -10dB pad the screws between the capsule and the body, I left those out. Uhm, Guitar Center is pretty good about returns, I figure I've got 30 days. I hooked them up with headphones, FWIW, they both sound exactly the same. They sounds good to me, mellow and warm. I'm going to try to figure out the mixer levels and do some recording this afternoon. I can already tell the AGC sucks. Thanks again, everyone :^) __________________ dB

December 20th, 2003, 10:19 PM	#21
Dan Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 235	Martin: Yes, the store in Arlington, on 157, just north of I-30. The Octavas came with cardioid capsules and 10 dB pads. I hear there's a hyper cardioid, but I didn't see them. The Pro-Audio manger is a guy named Kim, he's pretty knowledgable and helpful. They also had the Rode NT3's and Shure 81's among others. __________________ dB

December 20th, 2003, 10:24 PM	#22
Dan Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 235	BTW, the Octava mic stand adpaters are pretty useless, they have a non-standard thread size. I did find a RadioShack foam screen that fits them very well. And, the Behringer '802 mixer hisses like and angry camel, and I'll going to get my $50 back tomorrow. It looks like the Beachtec is a much better choice. __________________ dB

December 23rd, 2003, 12:49 PM	#28
Dan Brown Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 235	R. Scott Hanson aske that I keep the thread posted on what I've done... I have now modified the Behringer preamp (according to Jay Rose's designed) so that the ouputs are attenuated enought to match the mic input on the Pana DV852 (dropped it from +4dBu to -35 dBV). So, the two Oktavas record very nicely now. My Sure SM58 is also an option, but the Oktavas sound amazingly good. I put RadioShack foam screens on them. I have also ordered a BeachTek DXA-6 to use when AC power is unavailable. I'm so far under budget (was thinking of a $3k camera, but got a $600 unit, and got $50 mics, was thinking of $250 mics), that I'm trying to decide what else to get. Maybe a good shotgun or wireless lav. Perhaps a camera crane or a 12 foot dolly/track set up. Not sure. I'm presently shooting some elderly family members since they around for the holidays, where they talk about their life stories, ancestors, etc. Using Home Depot halogen work lights shot through makeshift scrim, and with the mics close to the 'talent', the tapes have a very professional quality. No regrets at all. AGC has not been a problem thus far. We'll see once I start using the BeachTek. So, for now, I'm going to hold off on the Marantz. I will start doing some trial shots from my 'film', working up camera techniques, blocking, etc. Hope this helps... Cheers. __________________ dB

December 19th, 2003, 03:37 PM	#17
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Methinks you got a good deal.

December 20th, 2003, 01:00 PM	#18
Martin Garrison Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 173	Dan, I'm going to be in DFW this week. Can you tell me which Guitar center you picked those up at? The one in Arlington? Which capsule did they come with? Thanks, Martin

December 20th, 2003, 03:50 PM	#19
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh : Carlos Ditch the marantz, I doubt it. First , the cards don't compress anything, they store what's loaded onto them. That could be PCM mono or stereo. It may be a compressed format like MP2 or 3. The Flash recorder can be connected to the USB port and files dragged onto my hard drive. Mini disk and DAT is real time. -->>> Well, maybe I was not too clear on my generalization. The problem with static memory systems is multiple. First of all price: in order to work with non-compressed system the cards have to be large. And large cards carry large prices. If the file is not compressed, like PCM, it will likely be large. Cards are probably similar to the ones used in photography, which are around $100 for 1GB. How much can you fit in one card? Will you have several cards for a shooting project or one card that you download every day? I have no problem with real time, I don't see what's the problem with it. Are we in such a rush that we need everything to be instantaneous? As a matter of fact I loath any recording system that does not allow me using a cheap, widely available media, which preferably allows me one tape or disk for every video tape shot. It makes me feel safer to know the audio recorded is secure and can't be erased except if on purpose. Not something that is inside a computer HD than can crash and ruin the whole thing. Flash card based systems were not designed for working in such a way, in my opinion. And as far as I know, portable FC based audio systems are mostly for radio and not for high quality audio recording. Core Audio sells a high quality system based on a PDA, but it carries all these problems I mentioned. Professional applications are quite limited. So for film or video work I stand by my words: do ditch the Marantz. <<<-- While the Marantz mic pre's aren't up to the standard of my sound devices, they aren't bad and the recorder is a whole lot better than a consumer grade setup. I guess if I wanted to I could run the audio through my 302 into the line in on the recorder. -->>> Of course the Marantz is better than a consumer grade! Nowadays it doesn't take much to design a chip based system that improves a lot on consumer audio. It's probably even better than most prosumer camera's audio stages, like PD150 or similar. But I think that you can use a mixer/preamp to go into a camera, into an MD or into a DAT and have more flexibility. Carlos

December 20th, 2003, 06:36 PM	#20
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Carlos, that's why they have more than one model of everything, so people can have a choice of features. A 1 gig card is a tad above $200 and will hold just over 3 hours of 44.1 khz PCM audio. Mpg2 192 kbps mono will be 13 hrs 18 minutes. That works for me. I can burn the audio onto Cd's DVD's or just leave it on the hard drive.

December 20th, 2003, 11:43 PM	#23
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Dan Read jay Rose's revirews before you jump into something else. You will need phantom and a mic pre. the beach only has phantom. The oktava has a pretty low sensitivety, you'd be pushing a camera preamp to the limits The Samsom mixpad is supposedly ok and it's around $170 US, the marenius is a 3 channel mono and is around $330 My mic clips work just fine.

December 21st, 2003, 01:21 AM	#24
Steve Lehman New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 11	Does anyone use or know about a Mackie DFX 6?

December 21st, 2003, 07:09 AM	#25
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan Beasleigh : Carlos, that's why they have more than one model of everything, so people can have a choice of features. A 1 gig card is a tad above $200 and will hold just over 3 hours of 44.1 khz PCM audio. Mpg2 192 kbps mono will be 13 hrs 18 minutes. -->>> First of all let's state some standards. PCM audio, 48KHz, 96KHz or 192KHz, 20 or 14 bit it's what we should be striving for. To go for a compression based system I definitely pick MD and no other. Second comes the media, that should be picked according to what you are doing. Maybe because I come from the old days, when we worked on Nagras, but I am definitely tainted by a shooting working routine where a day's work is usually defined by one or two tapes. Usually 15 minutes each, which is what we usually shot per day. Maybe because of that but I think such a routine has some merits. The fact that it wasn't downloaded to anything and kept away as originals is a great thing. Except on unusual occasions, I'd say it's rare shooting more than 30 minutes per day on any film/video. If someone does, great for them, as long as quality is good enough. $200 for a media is too high, even if you download it every day. If you do you will be working extra hours, which not many will like to. Three hour capacity is much more than we need also. Of course having options is great, but I am just pointing on the hows and whys the pro market, particularly location audio, picks certain medias instead of others. Up to this moment a definite standard for all hasn't been set yet, but DVD audio might be a likely one. Flash cards or removable HDs may become a standard when they get to $30, but I don't know when that will happen. From what we have around right now, MD seems to be the more affordable and practical media around for non-professionals. Carlos

December 21st, 2003, 12:36 PM	#26
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	"Up to this moment a definite standard for all hasn't been set yet, but DVD audio might be a likely one. Flash cards or removable HDs may become a standard when they get to $30, but I don't know when that will happen." As I said. that's why we have a choice. Flash and MD are two different ideas. Marantz stopped manufacturing the MD early this year. DVD or CD are great but lack full portability, they must be stationary to avoid jaring. Simple solution is you buy what you like and i'll buy what I feel I need.

December 21st, 2003, 05:26 PM	#27
Martin Garrison Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 173	"...if you download it every day. If you do you will be working extra hours, which not many will like to." "I have no problem with real time, I don't see what's the problem with it. Are we in such a rush that we need everything to be instantaneous?" If you only roll on 30 minutes of stereo 48k 16bit pcm a day, you can transfer all of that to a computer in about four minutes. Then burn two backup CDs in about fifteen more minutes. The flash memory has come down quite a bit over the last year and will probably continue to drop; Dat tape is still about $5.00(U.S.) an hour, CDs are around $0.20(U.S.) an hour. The Tascam DA-P1 is a great and affordable machine, but when was the last time the circuitry or preamps were updated? Maybe 8 years ago. The newly designed Marantz is going to sound better and be more affordable, even with a memory card. And next to the audio circuitry of a PD-150, no comparison. Does that mean it's necessarrily worth the trouble of running a double system? Probably not all the time. Some projects, location dialogue or interviews will sound good enough recording to the camera, that it is just not worth the time to record double on location, and sync it all back up in post. If you are going to be recording a double system, and you can't afford a Nagra, or time code dat, or one of the Zaxcom field systems, then the Marantz is an excellent option.

December 23rd, 2003, 02:08 PM	#29
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Dan The beach won't give you any amplification, can you get enough gain from your camera pre amp?

December 23rd, 2003, 03:39 PM	#30
Martin Garrison Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 173	Money left? Definetly consider, camera support like a DV jib, and a decent light kit. I'm glad its worked out for you, at a great price too. If you're happy with the way your tapes sound, skip the double record system. All the syncing and keeping detailed logs on the shoot, is a great deal of extra time.