Audio Monitors

Mike Butler · November 8th, 2003, 07:30 PM

Those reflections are causing what's known as standing waves, which is why a non-rectangular room shape is favored by many audio engineers and architects. It's good to break these up any which way you can, which can also include regular soft surfaces normally found in a room: carpeting, drapery, upholstered furniture, etc. and even angling the speakers can have an amazing effect.

It hasn't been much of a problem in my home studio, which has cathedral (slanted) ceilings with dormers (it's built over the garage) which really break up the rectangle, and a lot of rugs.

At the company HQ (my real job), the speakers are so close to me and angled inward, so it hasn't been noticable.

BTW, it is actually possible to "over-deaden" a room so that it doesn't sound natural. So now instead of building an anechoic chamber, many engineers are opting for a "live-end/dead-end" layout and trapping just one end of the room.

J. Clayton Stansberry · November 15th, 2003, 06:07 PM

I think I have pretty much decided to go with headphones. Does anyone have some good recommendations? Or, can anyone recommend a audio forum to check out for this? Thanks in advance...

Jacques Mersereau · November 15th, 2003, 08:19 PM

The industry standard for audio guys would be the Sony 7506.

About a $100.

Mike Butler · November 18th, 2003, 06:56 PM

Can't go wrong with the MDR-7506. Having said that, I still see a strong reason to use speakers. While I will slip on a pair of cans to detect infinitesimal nuances, tight edit points or complex mixes or to find out if the background is really really quiet, I want to have the same psychoacoustics going on as most of my viewers.

Which means the sound field of a pair of speakers.

No need to get crazy with speaker modeling and that kind of thing to exactly replicate specific playback conditions or equipment.

Just the fact of having a pair of speakers flanking the screen gives me the approximate feel that the typical audience will have during actual real-life conditions.

Boyd Ostroff · November 18th, 2003, 07:06 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : The industry standard for audio guys would be the Sony 7506. -->>>

I read a lot of old posts on this topic here awhile ago. IIRC, some people were saying these are basically the pro version of the consumer MDR-V600. I'm not clear on what the differences are, if any, between these models. The 7506's are not as widely available through local retail outlets and I was in a hurry so I got the V600's at a local electronics superstore. I ain't no pro either, but these sound nice to me, are comfortable and fold up nicely to take on location. Price was also $100.

Jacques Mersereau · November 19th, 2003, 06:55 AM

I believe www.fullcompass.com sells Sony 7506,
but you are correct Boyd that these phones are not
greatly advertised nor publicized.

I also agree with Mr. Butler that monitoring audio
via a pair of decent speakers is very important.

I guess if I *only had $100*, I would go with the Sonys
as speakers at this level won't give you any *real* idea of
what you're really mixing.

J. Clayton Stansberry · November 19th, 2003, 10:57 AM

Boyd,

I believe the Sony MDR-V6 and the MDR-7506 are pretty much the exact same thing. From what I have read they are good. Everyday, I change my mind between speakers and headphones. I thought I decided on headphones and then started reading more and going back and looking at the yorkville's. The one thing I like about phones is that I can't hear any cars going by or people walking by my place, etc. Does anyone know of any headphones that even come close to using speakers? Has there been any research about this? Anyone, anyone, anyone, Buehler, buehler....

Jacques Mersereau · November 19th, 2003, 11:49 AM

If you are on a tight budget, go with the 7506.
Even studios with thousands of dollars invested into
their monitors still use 7506 to check the mix.
If you are in an evironment filled with outside
noise, that increases the reasons for going with phones.

To get into "decent" near field monitors is going to
cost a lot more than $100.

Pony up to a friend who has a good stereo and
check you mix on speakers there.

Bryan Beasleigh · November 19th, 2003, 11:54 AM

The 7506 headphones are indeed the industry standard for production monitoring. Jay Rose's book discusses why a closed set of headphones are not the best for post production work though. Closed headphones like the 7506 are to detailed and if we mix based on that sound it will far too subtle. Speakers are recomended but I suppose a good set of open headphones would be better than closed for post

My office is cluttered as it is and I just have no room for a pair of monitors. I had planned on buying a decent set of open AKG's

J. Clayton Stansberry · November 19th, 2003, 12:08 PM

What's the difference between open and closed headphones?

Mike Butler · November 19th, 2003, 12:57 PM

Very simple: closed headphones completely cover and enclose your ear, isolating you from ambient sounds. Open ones do not...they usually have just an airy foam pad between the driver and your ear and usually an open back. The outside world can leak in, and of course the sound generated by these also leaks out. They have some advantages for personal entertainment music listening: less claustrophobic feeling, lighter and more comfortable, closer to a speaker-like experience...the latter is exactly why they don't help me much when I need a pair of cans for editing--if I want a speakeresque experience I'll use my speakers.

And if you do have a lot of outside noise, you definitely need closed phones. Like the MDR7506 recommended in this thread.

You can get them at:
fullcompass.com
zzounds.com
bhphoto.com (a sponsor of this forum)
samedaymusic.com
samash.com
markertek.com
and many more, and they’ll all get them to your front door quickly.

I don’t even waste my time with the consumer retailer “superstores”…they just don’t sell what we buy. Can you imagine walking into a Circuit City or Best Buy and asking to see a Mackie 1402VLZPRO? Or a Sennheiser Evolution 100ENG? Or a Laird distribution amp? LOL!!!!

J. Clayton Stansberry · November 19th, 2003, 01:32 PM

Duh. I hate it when things are so freaking obvious and I can't figure it out. Thanks Mike! Still thinking about the 7506's...the closed ones!

Bryan Beasleigh · November 20th, 2003, 09:01 AM

Editing should be done with speakers and in a quiet environment. Sound mixed for closed headphones will not sound the same on speakers. For the record I use 7506's for recording only.

Mike Butler · November 20th, 2003, 10:00 AM

Very well said, Bryan.

The spatial characteristics of 'phones, along with the way they reproduce detail, give no representaion of what the viewer of your video will hear under normal conditions (unless you know that all your viewers are going to be using headphones, ha ha).

Especially dialogue, which may be perfectly intelligible through the cans but sound like total mud in the real world (speakers) until you do something to pull it out (equalize it, attenuate the music or SFX, re-record the voice with better miking, etc.)

J. Clayton Stansberry · November 20th, 2003, 10:58 AM

What about mixing music? I guess it would be the same reason.

I am still sturggling to understand the difference (in layman's terms) other than you get a more true sound out of the speakers??? True to what? The performance, the sound of one's voice?

But, Bryan said: "Closed headphones like the 7506 are to detailed and if we mix based on that sound it will far too subtle. Speakers are recomended but I suppose a good set of open headphones would be better than closed for post."

Don't have Rose's book, but will get it. In the mean time, I thought what we all are striving for is detailed sound.

Why do amps and speakers and such "muddy" the sound up? I understand amps process sound differently. But, if we take that into account we'll never get it right. The possibilities are unfathamable as to exactly what set-up our costumer/viewer will have. So, is everyone just making an educated guess?

Man, I have no idea where that came from? Too much coffee! Ok, thanks in advance for helping me understand...just trying to learn some new stuff and understand what's going on in this big bad world of editing!

Clay

November 8th, 2003, 07:30 PM	#16
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Those reflections are causing what's known as standing waves, which is why a non-rectangular room shape is favored by many audio engineers and architects. It's good to break these up any which way you can, which can also include regular soft surfaces normally found in a room: carpeting, drapery, upholstered furniture, etc. and even angling the speakers can have an amazing effect. It hasn't been much of a problem in my home studio, which has cathedral (slanted) ceilings with dormers (it's built over the garage) which really break up the rectangle, and a lot of rugs. At the company HQ (my real job), the speakers are so close to me and angled inward, so it hasn't been noticable. BTW, it is actually possible to "over-deaden" a room so that it doesn't sound natural. So now instead of building an anechoic chamber, many engineers are opting for a "live-end/dead-end" layout and trapping just one end of the room. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

November 15th, 2003, 06:07 PM	#17
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	I think I have pretty much decided to go with headphones. Does anyone have some good recommendations? Or, can anyone recommend a audio forum to check out for this? Thanks in advance... __________________ I understand everything about nothing.

November 15th, 2003, 08:19 PM	#18
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	The industry standard for audio guys would be the Sony 7506. About a $100. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

November 18th, 2003, 06:56 PM	#19
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Can't go wrong with the MDR-7506. Having said that, I still see a strong reason to use speakers. While I will slip on a pair of cans to detect infinitesimal nuances, tight edit points or complex mixes or to find out if the background is really really quiet, I want to have the same psychoacoustics going on as most of my viewers. Which means the sound field of a pair of speakers. No need to get crazy with speaker modeling and that kind of thing to exactly replicate specific playback conditions or equipment. Just the fact of having a pair of speakers flanking the screen gives me the approximate feel that the typical audience will have during actual real-life conditions. __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

November 19th, 2003, 06:55 AM	#21
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	I believe www.fullcompass.com sells Sony 7506, but you are correct Boyd that these phones are not greatly advertised nor publicized. I also agree with Mr. Butler that monitoring audio via a pair of decent speakers is very important. I guess if I only had $100, I would go with the Sonys as speakers at this level won't give you any real idea of what you're really mixing. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

November 18th, 2003, 07:06 PM	#20
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : The industry standard for audio guys would be the Sony 7506. -->>> I read a lot of old posts on this topic here awhile ago. IIRC, some people were saying these are basically the pro version of the consumer MDR-V600. I'm not clear on what the differences are, if any, between these models. The 7506's are not as widely available through local retail outlets and I was in a hurry so I got the V600's at a local electronics superstore. I ain't no pro either, but these sound nice to me, are comfortable and fold up nicely to take on location. Price was also $100.

November 19th, 2003, 10:57 AM	#22
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	Boyd, I believe the Sony MDR-V6 and the MDR-7506 are pretty much the exact same thing. From what I have read they are good. Everyday, I change my mind between speakers and headphones. I thought I decided on headphones and then started reading more and going back and looking at the yorkville's. The one thing I like about phones is that I can't hear any cars going by or people walking by my place, etc. Does anyone know of any headphones that even come close to using speakers? Has there been any research about this? Anyone, anyone, anyone, Buehler, buehler.... __________________ I understand everything about nothing.

November 19th, 2003, 11:49 AM	#23
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	If you are on a tight budget, go with the 7506. Even studios with thousands of dollars invested into their monitors still use 7506 to check the mix. If you are in an evironment filled with outside noise, that increases the reasons for going with phones. To get into "decent" near field monitors is going to cost a lot more than $100. Pony up to a friend who has a good stereo and check you mix on speakers there. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

November 19th, 2003, 11:54 AM	#24
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	The 7506 headphones are indeed the industry standard for production monitoring. Jay Rose's book discusses why a closed set of headphones are not the best for post production work though. Closed headphones like the 7506 are to detailed and if we mix based on that sound it will far too subtle. Speakers are recomended but I suppose a good set of open headphones would be better than closed for post My office is cluttered as it is and I just have no room for a pair of monitors. I had planned on buying a decent set of open AKG's

November 19th, 2003, 12:08 PM	#25
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	What's the difference between open and closed headphones? __________________ I understand everything about nothing.

November 19th, 2003, 12:57 PM	#26
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Very simple: closed headphones completely cover and enclose your ear, isolating you from ambient sounds. Open ones do not...they usually have just an airy foam pad between the driver and your ear and usually an open back. The outside world can leak in, and of course the sound generated by these also leaks out. They have some advantages for personal entertainment music listening: less claustrophobic feeling, lighter and more comfortable, closer to a speaker-like experience...the latter is exactly why they don't help me much when I need a pair of cans for editing--if I want a speakeresque experience I'll use my speakers. And if you do have a lot of outside noise, you definitely need closed phones. Like the MDR7506 recommended in this thread. You can get them at: fullcompass.com zzounds.com bhphoto.com (a sponsor of this forum) samedaymusic.com samash.com markertek.com and many more, and they’ll all get them to your front door quickly. I don’t even waste my time with the consumer retailer “superstores”…they just don’t sell what we buy. Can you imagine walking into a Circuit City or Best Buy and asking to see a Mackie 1402VLZPRO? Or a Sennheiser Evolution 100ENG? Or a Laird distribution amp? LOL!!!! __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

November 19th, 2003, 01:32 PM	#27
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	Duh. I hate it when things are so freaking obvious and I can't figure it out. Thanks Mike! Still thinking about the 7506's...the closed ones! __________________ I understand everything about nothing.

November 20th, 2003, 09:01 AM	#28
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	Editing should be done with speakers and in a quiet environment. Sound mixed for closed headphones will not sound the same on speakers. For the record I use 7506's for recording only.

November 20th, 2003, 10:00 AM	#29
Mike Butler Machinist Mate Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Southern Connecticut Posts: 644	Very well said, Bryan. The spatial characteristics of 'phones, along with the way they reproduce detail, give no representaion of what the viewer of your video will hear under normal conditions (unless you know that all your viewers are going to be using headphones, ha ha). Especially dialogue, which may be perfectly intelligible through the cans but sound like total mud in the real world (speakers) until you do something to pull it out (equalize it, attenuate the music or SFX, re-record the voice with better miking, etc.) __________________ I ain't straight outta Compton, I'm straight out the trailer. Cuss like a sailor, drink like a Mc. My only words of wisdom are just, "Radio Edit."

November 20th, 2003, 10:58 AM	#30
J. Clayton Stansberry Major Player Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 316	What about mixing music? I guess it would be the same reason. I am still sturggling to understand the difference (in layman's terms) other than you get a more true sound out of the speakers??? True to what? The performance, the sound of one's voice? But, Bryan said: "Closed headphones like the 7506 are to detailed and if we mix based on that sound it will far too subtle. Speakers are recomended but I suppose a good set of open headphones would be better than closed for post." Don't have Rose's book, but will get it. In the mean time, I thought what we all are striving for is detailed sound. Why do amps and speakers and such "muddy" the sound up? I understand amps process sound differently. But, if we take that into account we'll never get it right. The possibilities are unfathamable as to exactly what set-up our costumer/viewer will have. So, is everyone just making an educated guess? Man, I have no idea where that came from? Too much coffee! Ok, thanks in advance for helping me understand...just trying to learn some new stuff and understand what's going on in this big bad world of editing! Clay __________________ I understand everything about nothing.