The right choice for a digital audio recorder at DVinfo.net

Francois Dormoy · March 25th, 2009, 06:19 PM

I am not sure this item falls in the right thread but may be you could direct me to the right direction.
I have a EX1 camera and would like to interview people not in using any microphone connected to the camera or a wireless system, but instead in using an independent digital audio recorder which means that a synchronisation will be made with the clip during the montage.
I read a long time ago that some of these items have difficulties to synchronise with the camera but do not recall which one(s) was criticized.

My interest is on the Marantz PMD620 Professional Handheld Digital Audio Recorder or the Tascam DR-07 Portable Digital Audio Recorder.

Can someone tell me if they are OK and I have no fear for bad audio-picture synchronisation ?

Ilya Spektor · March 25th, 2009, 08:02 PM

You can find many answers at 'All things audio' part of the forum:

All Things Audio - The Digital Video Information Network

Mike Demmers · March 25th, 2009, 08:39 PM

Syncronization on all these small units is dependent upon the clock in your camera and the clock in the recorder being exactly matched, since they do not have clock inputs.

Even the worst of them is good for about 15 minutes or so, an hour fairly common, several hours if you get lucky.

There are variations even between units of the same model, so just because one works for one person with a particular unit and camera does not mean you will get exactly the same performance.

In the majority of practical uses, it does not matter much, because it is a pretty trivial matter to slide the audio slightly to get it back in sync.

If you really, really need long term sync, the only way to guarantee it is to use a recorder that is designed to sync, like this one:

TASCAM

The recorders you mention are in different price ranges, but judging from the features and reviews, I would still probably pick the DR-07, or better, the DR-1 over the Marantz.

Read the stickies in the audio section.

-Mike

Artkran Temritikulchai · March 26th, 2009, 11:10 AM

OK I got another question for gurus..

What if I were to take a digi 002R on location with a macbook to record sound. How do I sync with ex1

Mike Demmers · March 27th, 2009, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artkran Temritikulchai

OK I got another question for gurus..

What if I were to take a digi 002R on location with a macbook to record sound. How do I sync with ex1

You can probably do that by feeding any video output, or the genlock output, to one of these:

MOTU.com - MIDI Timpiece AV

which will convert it to LTC, MTC, ADAT Sync, or word clock (or Digidesign "superclock").

I say probably only because the 002R, unlike the 003, does not seem to have a word clock input. But I expect it has a way to handle the sync over its firewire connection. Look at the manual for your software version to see.

Kevin Cates · March 27th, 2009, 01:29 AM

Recording audio into the Camera is your best bet for sync, since there is no output for Time code from the EX1 to sync with external audio recorder.

I've been using the Zoom H4 recorder for years. Mostly for back-up. But it comes in handy (for performance/lecture ) placing it in the audience to pick up clapping, questions, laughing, or heckling. Then I mix it in later in post. It works fine as primary audio.

If recording separate with out Time Code: the most important thing is to create a video and audio CUE: a hand clapping, slate clap, first word, first music note. This way you can sync both tracks in post. It is also wise to also record audio on the camera as a scratch/reference track - even if its just the camera mic.

Steve Shovlar · March 27th, 2009, 06:47 AM

I have the Edirol r-09 handheld digital recorder and it's very nice. An excellent sound and fairly priced.

Noah Kadner · March 27th, 2009, 11:59 AM

I use the LS-10. Totally rocks. We brought it with us to China:

YouTube - China Report - Beijing Broadcasting

-Noah

Matt Davis · March 28th, 2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Shovlar

Edirol r-09 handheld digital recorder - excellent sound and fairly priced.

Another shout for the Edirol R-09 HR which is now a constant travelling companion.

Zooms have had sync issues - a couple of friends in the business went for the Zoom for its XLRs, and they all swear at them. Others bought the Edirol and swear by them. One of them went on to buy the 4 channel version too, which saves bacon on complex round-table interviews.

Absolutely NO sync issues on the Edirol line. Used one to record line feed from sound desk at an event over full afternoon of presentations. No problems whatsoever.

Nicer limiters, great on-board mics, mine's become 'the other radio mic'.

Chris Hurd · March 28th, 2009, 01:21 PM

Moved from EX to ATA where it belongs...

Roger Shore · March 28th, 2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Daviss

Absolutely NO sync issues on the Edirol line.

Certain element of luck involved there -- remember that even if the audio recorder 'clock' is absolutely spot on, if the camera clock is slightly different (which is entirely possible- all these devices use commercial crystals which have a tolerance), then the remote audio will still be the one that has to be adjusted for sync. The camera audio is the one that is in sync with the video, and has to remain the master.

I posted a procedure here: My Video Problems :: View topic - Synchronise external and camera audio tracks. a while ago, that offered some suggestions for syncing remote audio tracks.

For the most part, the differences on short takes probably don't justify any realignment, but for longer takes it can be useful.

Nicole Hankerson · March 28th, 2009, 10:03 PM

What's your budget looking like? Check out the Edirol R-44. A very nice portable recorder and it records each input on a separate track(excellent for post).

Nicole

Dave Harris · March 29th, 2009, 12:30 PM

Why not use or split the monitoring feed, and send it to the Camera as well as capturing the audio on the recorder? You're already going to use a digital recorder, why not make a backup, and have audio on the video that's good enough to rough-cut or preview?

I'm using one of those Samson/Zoom H2 units...It's amazing what those little things are capable of. No XLR inputs, though...But what I'd do is record the interview using the 4-point surround mode uncompressed, and use a headphone splitter to send the monitor output to both a set of headphones (if you're going to monitor, and you should) and the camera's Mic In port. Adjust levels accordingly. To get a good level on the camera, you may have to boost the audio out of the recorder and use an inline pad for the headphones (like an inline volume control---try Radio Shack).

Everything is gonna have differences in the clock, unless you're syncing everything up with timecode. Using a slate at the beginning and end of the take will greatly aid in sync later...Make sure you use a full-featured editor, or the process will be impossible...

Dave Stern · March 29th, 2009, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Harris

... Everything is gonna have differences in the clock, unless you're syncing everything up with timecode. Using a slate at the beginning and end of the take will greatly aid in sync later...Make sure you use a full-featured editor, or the process will be impossible...

one note francois, is that timecode, e.g. the timestamp in the header of the file, is different than the clock rate, which guides the sampling frequency of the analog to digital conversion. you don't necessarily need the absolute time code, you can sync those together using some visual / audio clue (hand clap, etc.). but if the clock frequencies of the camera and audio recorder are similar, then your audio will stay synced better. and if you have an audio / visual reference at the end, then you could adjust in your editor.. but timecode and clock rate are different things, fyi. some audio recorders can accept a video signal in and sync their clock to the video clock rate as determined by that input, but this is more needed for long takes.

Francois Dormoy · March 29th, 2009, 03:18 PM

Thanks for all these useful comments. At the end my uage of it does not justify paying more than $200 for suchd evice so the one I am interested is the Tascam DR-07 at $199.
Since it is for use to interview my wife during about 30 seconds or 1 minute max whilst showing the Grand Canyon background, the synchronisation should be easy when producing my montage. It is just a matter of asking my wife to make a clap with her hands before talking to ease the syncrhonisation.

March 25th, 2009, 06:19 PM	#1
Francois Dormoy Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 81	The right choice for a digital audio recorder I am not sure this item falls in the right thread but may be you could direct me to the right direction. I have a EX1 camera and would like to interview people not in using any microphone connected to the camera or a wireless system, but instead in using an independent digital audio recorder which means that a synchronisation will be made with the clip during the montage. I read a long time ago that some of these items have difficulties to synchronise with the camera but do not recall which one(s) was criticized. My interest is on the Marantz PMD620 Professional Handheld Digital Audio Recorder or the Tascam DR-07 Portable Digital Audio Recorder. Can someone tell me if they are OK and I have no fear for bad audio-picture synchronisation ?

March 25th, 2009, 08:02 PM	#2
Ilya Spektor Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Bronx, NY Posts: 99	You can find many answers at 'All things audio' part of the forum: All Things Audio - The Digital Video Information Network __________________ Thank you.

March 28th, 2009, 01:21 PM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Moved from EX to ATA where it belongs... __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 28th, 2009, 10:03 PM	#12
Nicole Hankerson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norcross, GA Posts: 143	Edirol R-44 What's your budget looking like? Check out the Edirol R-44. A very nice portable recorder and it records each input on a separate track(excellent for post). Nicole

March 25th, 2009, 08:39 PM	#3
Mike Demmers Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Portland OR Posts: 159	Syncronization on all these small units is dependent upon the clock in your camera and the clock in the recorder being exactly matched, since they do not have clock inputs. Even the worst of them is good for about 15 minutes or so, an hour fairly common, several hours if you get lucky. There are variations even between units of the same model, so just because one works for one person with a particular unit and camera does not mean you will get exactly the same performance. In the majority of practical uses, it does not matter much, because it is a pretty trivial matter to slide the audio slightly to get it back in sync. If you really, really need long term sync, the only way to guarantee it is to use a recorder that is designed to sync, like this one: TASCAM The recorders you mention are in different price ranges, but judging from the features and reviews, I would still probably pick the DR-07, or better, the DR-1 over the Marantz. Read the stickies in the audio section. -Mike

March 26th, 2009, 11:10 AM	#4
Artkran Temritikulchai New Boot Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Thai Posts: 5	OK I got another question for gurus.. What if I were to take a digi 002R on location with a macbook to record sound. How do I sync with ex1

March 27th, 2009, 01:29 AM	#6
Kevin Cates Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Fairfax, CA USA Posts: 33	Recording audio into the Camera is your best bet for sync, since there is no output for Time code from the EX1 to sync with external audio recorder. I've been using the Zoom H4 recorder for years. Mostly for back-up. But it comes in handy (for performance/lecture ) placing it in the audience to pick up clapping, questions, laughing, or heckling. Then I mix it in later in post. It works fine as primary audio. If recording separate with out Time Code: the most important thing is to create a video and audio CUE: a hand clapping, slate clap, first word, first music note. This way you can sync both tracks in post. It is also wise to also record audio on the camera as a scratch/reference track - even if its just the camera mic.

March 27th, 2009, 06:47 AM	#7
Steve Shovlar Major Player Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dorset UK Posts: 697	I have the Edirol r-09 handheld digital recorder and it's very nice. An excellent sound and fairly priced.

March 27th, 2009, 11:59 AM	#8
Noah Kadner Better than Halle Berry Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 435	I use the LS-10. Totally rocks. We brought it with us to China: YouTube - China Report - Beijing Broadcasting -Noah

March 29th, 2009, 12:30 PM	#13
Dave Harris New Boot Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 5	Why not use or split the monitoring feed, and send it to the Camera as well as capturing the audio on the recorder? You're already going to use a digital recorder, why not make a backup, and have audio on the video that's good enough to rough-cut or preview? I'm using one of those Samson/Zoom H2 units...It's amazing what those little things are capable of. No XLR inputs, though...But what I'd do is record the interview using the 4-point surround mode uncompressed, and use a headphone splitter to send the monitor output to both a set of headphones (if you're going to monitor, and you should) and the camera's Mic In port. Adjust levels accordingly. To get a good level on the camera, you may have to boost the audio out of the recorder and use an inline pad for the headphones (like an inline volume control---try Radio Shack). Everything is gonna have differences in the clock, unless you're syncing everything up with timecode. Using a slate at the beginning and end of the take will greatly aid in sync later...Make sure you use a full-featured editor, or the process will be impossible...

March 29th, 2009, 03:18 PM	#15
Francois Dormoy Regular Crew Join Date: May 2008 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 81	Thanks for all these useful comments. At the end my uage of it does not justify paying more than $200 for suchd evice so the one I am interested is the Tascam DR-07 at $199. Since it is for use to interview my wife during about 30 seconds or 1 minute max whilst showing the Grand Canyon background, the synchronisation should be easy when producing my montage. It is just a matter of asking my wife to make a clap with her hands before talking to ease the syncrhonisation.