Pro digital recorder at DVinfo.net

Mark Cinense · January 16th, 2009, 12:52 AM

So I read the 10 amendments to recording audio... ;)

very good read... I have a Pro digi recorder Tascam DR-1... not the greatest unit, but works for my other needs. Anyway, since the audio recording on my JVC GZ-HD7 camera is less than desired, I thought that maybe recording to that instead would be better and then just syncing the audio... If this is true...

1. is it difficult to sync the audio?
2. does this work with any DVC?

I hope this is not a dumb question... Still a newbie here...

Daniel Epstein · January 16th, 2009, 09:43 AM

Double system sound has been done for many many years and takes a fair amount of discipline to get it right even with the best of equipment. Some jobs are easier than others. If you are doing a lot of short takes it can be very time consuming to sync each take, if you are doing a lot of long takes then sync problems can arise. You will want to figure out how to slate your takes and keep track of all the files to be dealt with in post. My best advice is always try and record decent sound to the camera even if you are going to use the superior recording from the seperate audio deck at the end.
The Tascam DR-1 is probably not going to work well as a principal recorder in some situations but you may not mind the compromise depending on what you are recording. Most people who are doing this everyday would want a deck and a camera with timecode and a timecode slate etc. You don't have to have this level of gear to do double system but you kind of get what you pay for and in audio that usually means much more expensive gear than the Tascam DR-1 for even the most basic improvement in functionality when it comes to convenience with double system sound.

John McClain · January 16th, 2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Cinense

So I read the 10 amendments to recording audio... ;)

very good read... I have a Pro digi recorder Tascam DR-1... not the greatest unit, but works for my other needs. Anyway, since the audio recording on my JVC GZ-HD7 camera is less than desired, I thought that maybe recording to that instead would be better and then just syncing the audio... If this is true...

1. is it difficult to sync the audio?
2. does this work with any DVC?

I hope this is not a dumb question... Still a newbie here...

It could be very difficult to sync the audio, see this thread for some good info:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/all-thing...recorders.html

I agree with Daniel, start with good sound to the camera. Perhaps a good mic pre going line out to your camera? (If doing it this way don't forget to turn off phantom power on the camera if so equipped!) john.

Ben Moore · January 18th, 2009, 09:45 AM

Mark

Your Camera records audio MPEG-1 Layer2 foramt, find out the sample rate and bit rate and set your audio recorder to the same. Using the same sample and bit rate on camera and recorder gives you the best chance of keeping sync in post.

Ben

Mark Cinense · January 18th, 2009, 02:58 PM

Sounds good. Thanks for the information. I believe that the DR-1 will handle the same recording settings for audio of the HD7.

I will have to try it. Also I am considering trying this with the Aiptek HD Camera.

Guy Cochran · January 19th, 2009, 07:38 PM

Depending on how long your projects are will depend on if the hand syncing will drive you crazy or not. A lot of times we have simple 5 minute videos to produce and hand syncing isn't too time consuming once you get fast with using markers and slipping your audio around in your NLE. I just had to do this with the new Canon 5D Mark II video - I recorded that audio to an Edirol R-44 because that camera's audio is crap. Which may be the case with your JVC and why you want to use the Tascam.

If you're doing long form projects, it's going to become torture. If this is the gear you have and you're constrained by budget, then I'm sure you can make it work with a little patience. I would probably add a RODE Videomic to your set-up with a 10' VC1 extension cord and see how that goes. That would add about $169 to your setup and improve your audio. Try feeding it into the camera first and doing some tests, then try the external recorder. You may find that if you can get the mic close to the subject that the sound may be acceptable for your needs.

Hope this helps,

Tom Alexander · January 19th, 2009, 08:24 PM

Digital recorders tend to be very consistent within their own kind, so once you determine how far out of sync your recorder is with your camcorder, you merely time stretch the audio to match.

One easy way of doing this is to get a one time measurement by making a 30 minute recording of both audio with the digital recorder, and video with your camcorder. Clap at the beginning and the end to mark the time and enable you to match them up in your audio editor (or NLE). Then I just line the audio from each of them up in Audition (Vegas, or Audacity, or any audio editor should work) and find out what percentage your audio is off. If you have to time stretch your digital recorder's by 99.79%, you should only need to time stretch the audio by that same number from then on when loading it into your NLE.

I found that my Zoom H2 was off from my HV30 by 4/100th of a second over 1 hour. I don't even bother to time stretch those.

Neil Bolton · February 3rd, 2009, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Cinense

So I read the 10 amendments to recording audio... ;)

1. is it difficult to sync the audio?
2. does this work with any DVC?

I hope this is not a dumb question... Still a newbie here...

From another newbie:

I did my first recordings last Thursday and Friday, spent the weekend learning Acid Pro.

Once I had learned the basics, which took some time, I can happily report that I found syncing two Zoom H4s and one Tascam digital recorder is an absolute breeze. That said, the tracks I did were all less than four minutes. But the thing I discovered is that you really don't need to be 100% accurate. Slightly off actually makes it sound better sometimes (I was recording a 40 voice choir - I'm sure it would be different with a single source).

My recommendation: Give it a try. You might find, as I did, that it's a snap.

Neil

January 16th, 2009, 12:52 AM	#1
Mark Cinense Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Duke City, USA Posts: 53	Pro digital recorder So I read the 10 amendments to recording audio... ;) very good read... I have a Pro digi recorder Tascam DR-1... not the greatest unit, but works for my other needs. Anyway, since the audio recording on my JVC GZ-HD7 camera is less than desired, I thought that maybe recording to that instead would be better and then just syncing the audio... If this is true... 1. is it difficult to sync the audio? 2. does this work with any DVC? I hope this is not a dumb question... Still a newbie here... __________________ Best Regards, M A Cinense

January 18th, 2009, 02:58 PM	#5
Mark Cinense Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Duke City, USA Posts: 53	Sounds good. Thanks for the information. I believe that the DR-1 will handle the same recording settings for audio of the HD7. I will have to try it. Also I am considering trying this with the Aiptek HD Camera. __________________ Best Regards, M A Cinense

January 19th, 2009, 07:38 PM	#6
Guy Cochran DVCreators.Net Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 892	Depending on how long your projects are will depend on if the hand syncing will drive you crazy or not. A lot of times we have simple 5 minute videos to produce and hand syncing isn't too time consuming once you get fast with using markers and slipping your audio around in your NLE. I just had to do this with the new Canon 5D Mark II video - I recorded that audio to an Edirol R-44 because that camera's audio is crap. Which may be the case with your JVC and why you want to use the Tascam. If you're doing long form projects, it's going to become torture. If this is the gear you have and you're constrained by budget, then I'm sure you can make it work with a little patience. I would probably add a RODE Videomic to your set-up with a 10' VC1 extension cord and see how that goes. That would add about $169 to your setup and improve your audio. Try feeding it into the camera first and doing some tests, then try the external recorder. You may find that if you can get the mic close to the subject that the sound may be acceptable for your needs. Hope this helps, __________________ Guy Cochran DVinfo Sponsor, Cool Gear - DVeStore!

January 16th, 2009, 09:43 AM	#2
Daniel Epstein Trustee Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,267	Double system sound has been done for many many years and takes a fair amount of discipline to get it right even with the best of equipment. Some jobs are easier than others. If you are doing a lot of short takes it can be very time consuming to sync each take, if you are doing a lot of long takes then sync problems can arise. You will want to figure out how to slate your takes and keep track of all the files to be dealt with in post. My best advice is always try and record decent sound to the camera even if you are going to use the superior recording from the seperate audio deck at the end. The Tascam DR-1 is probably not going to work well as a principal recorder in some situations but you may not mind the compromise depending on what you are recording. Most people who are doing this everyday would want a deck and a camera with timecode and a timecode slate etc. You don't have to have this level of gear to do double system but you kind of get what you pay for and in audio that usually means much more expensive gear than the Tascam DR-1 for even the most basic improvement in functionality when it comes to convenience with double system sound.

January 18th, 2009, 09:45 AM	#4
Ben Moore Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 190	Mark Your Camera records audio MPEG-1 Layer2 foramt, find out the sample rate and bit rate and set your audio recorder to the same. Using the same sample and bit rate on camera and recorder gives you the best chance of keeping sync in post. Ben

January 19th, 2009, 08:24 PM	#7
Tom Alexander Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Ontario, Ca. Posts: 121	Digital recorders tend to be very consistent within their own kind, so once you determine how far out of sync your recorder is with your camcorder, you merely time stretch the audio to match. One easy way of doing this is to get a one time measurement by making a 30 minute recording of both audio with the digital recorder, and video with your camcorder. Clap at the beginning and the end to mark the time and enable you to match them up in your audio editor (or NLE). Then I just line the audio from each of them up in Audition (Vegas, or Audacity, or any audio editor should work) and find out what percentage your audio is off. If you have to time stretch your digital recorder's by 99.79%, you should only need to time stretch the audio by that same number from then on when loading it into your NLE. I found that my Zoom H2 was off from my HV30 by 4/100th of a second over 1 hour. I don't even bother to time stretch those.