24bit Cameras

[Roshdi Alkadri]

my bad steve, i missed that one. For dialogue recording, do you think using the mixer into my HVX will yield enough dynamic range to work with in post, or do you think double system is the way to go all the time?

Someone stated that 16bit/48khz on the DVX/HVX is pretty much DAT quality.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Roshdi Alkadri

i guess what im getting at is that if we'll ever see 24bit/48khz cameras with some nice preamps. One can just plugin the mixer and make some clean recordings on the camera itself.
I do notice that most audio people shun single system because of its quality issues. And the cameraman doesnt really wanna pay attention to sound. Im wondering if technology will offer better audio rather the usual cheap audio circuits. Im aware of Red's audio problems and that is finally resolved. This is a non issue now as the company has matured and will apply its latest findings into the new cameras, the Red, Epic and Scarlet. Not to mention the image making features being upgraded with the Mysterium X Sensor.

Please direct us to information that supports that the Red camera no longer has audio issues. Including the problem that the camera itself is hugely loud and requires barneys or blankets which keep it from throwing off the heat from the processors.

Any thoughts on the notion that one of the important processors in the Red is actually a Sony chip, leading some to believe Sony has Red on a short leash (but longer than Aiwa, which is owned by Sony) and is using them as a test market pawn to bring leading/bleeding edge technology to market without exposing the Sony name to bad press when there are problems?

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Steve Oakley]

I'm sure there;s probably a sony chip in there, and I'll bet one from intel too. that doesn't mean anything. back the in the 90's during the early mac PPC days, there where 2 intel chips on the apple mobo if you cared to look. that didn't mean anything except intel sold a chip that did a job with the right specs for a price that worked. nothing deeper.

I'm sure sony is quite befuddled with their F23 and F35 cameras at 6X and 10-12X the price. sure them sony's look oddly like a panavision body, but you can be sure they are looking at RED as a serious threat. time will tell. its not like sony doesn't make a quality product, but their pricing has often left a lot to be desired.

[Dan Brockett]

Originally Posted by Roshdi Alkadri

i guess what im getting at is that if we'll ever see 24bit/48khz cameras with some nice preamps. One can just plugin the mixer and make some clean recordings on the camera itself.
I do notice that most audio people shun single system because of its quality issues. And the cameraman doesnt really wanna pay attention to sound. Im wondering if technology will offer better audio rather the usual cheap audio circuits. Im aware of Red's audio problems and that is finally resolved. This is a non issue now as the company has matured and will apply its latest findings into the new cameras, the Red, Epic and Scarlet. Not to mention the image making features being upgraded with the Mysterium X Sensor.

Hi Roshdi:

It was only a few short years ago that Sony faced at least the threat of a class action lawsuit from disgruntled owners of the PD-150 camcorder for the cameras lack of even usable sound quality. In my experience, camcorder departments of manufacturers place very little emphasis on developing high quality audio circuitry for the simple fact that it doesn't pay for them to.

You must understand that 90% of camera oriented people do NOT care about audio, know very little about audio and will not buy a new camcorder based upon audio specs and features, we who do care about the audio quality are the statistical freaks that really don't matter as far as mass market advertising. Therefore camcorder marketing is all geared toward lenses, codecs, formats and picture features.

Personally I feel that a camcorder marketing department could put some emphasis on audio specs and performance and if they wanted to, they could create a camcorder that features truly high end audio quality, this could be a good feature to differentiate their camcorder from the competition.

Someday, it will happen but only after formats and picture features have reached parity between manufacturers at specific price points and the manufacturers are looking for a differentiating point for their marketing.

Dan

[Roshdi Alkadri]

yes you're right Dan, and no one pays attention to audio unless something is wrong. And if the audio mixer/editor has done his/her job right, then no one should notice! I think that manufacturers should offer more in the audio arena as the market has changed. What i mean is that with today's bread of high end image making cameras, a manufacturer should offer unique audio features to seperate themselves from the rest. I'll hold on to my 702T until that happens.

TY, Red is offering a free upgrade for the owners as far as audio goes. Jim also stated that they will apply all they learned from listening to the community and they will offer better features. One example is the new Mysterium X sensor which will also be incorporated ino the upcoming Scarlet/Epic. I guess we'll wait and see.

I did hear horror stories about the audio having to be blimped but i think this will be a non issue soon.

Red is still a breakthrough as no one comes close to the performance and price of a 4k camera in that range. Look at the upcoming Scarlet, 3k resolution, 2/3 inch, 180fps, CF recording and doing all this RAW, please point me to anyone else who will offer this under $3000. Red came out, what, 3 years ago, for what Jim and the Red Team have accomplished, that speaks for itself.

Roshdi

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

Hi Roshdi:
Personally I feel that a camcorder marketing department could put some emphasis on audio specs and performance and if they wanted to, they could create a camcorder that features truly high end audio quality, this could be a good feature to differentiate their camcorder from the competition.

Someday, it will happen but only after formats and picture features have reached parity between manufacturers at specific price points and the manufacturers are looking for a differentiating point for their marketing.
Dan

Over the years, I have asked Sony camera reps at NAB about improving audio quality on their cameras. I get a smile and a shrug or a blank look. This has become an industry joke passed around the audio community: "We're Sony we make cameras." Implying that the camera department doesn't give a hoot about audio.

The Sony audio guys I have known over the years are very cool people, know a lot and do a lot of hard work. What's weird is that there seems to be a divide between Sony Audio and Sony Cameras. That makes SO little sense to me. Sony has audio people who could vastly improve their camera audio. Why Sony has yet to step up to take a leadership position here is baffling. It's a no-brainer.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Roshdi Alkadri

yes you're right Dan, and no one pays attention to audio unless something is wrong. And if the audio mixer/editor has done his/her job right, then no one should notice! I think that manufacturers should offer more in the audio arena as the market has changed. What i mean is that with today's bread of high end image making cameras, a manufacturer should offer unique audio features to seperate themselves from the rest. I'll hold on to my 702T until that happens.

TY, Red is offering a free upgrade for the owners as far as audio goes. Jim also stated that they will apply all they learned from listening to the community and they will offer better features. One example is the new Mysterium X sensor which will also be incorporated ino the upcoming Scarlet/Epic. I guess we'll wait and see.

I did hear horror stories about the audio having to be blimped but i think this will be a non issue soon.

Red is still a breakthrough as no one comes close to the performance and price of a 4k camera in that range. Look at the upcoming Scarlet, 3k resolution, 2/3 inch, 180fps, CF recording and doing all this RAW, please point me to anyone else who will offer this under $3000. Red came out, what, 3 years ago, for what Jim and the Red Team have accomplished, that speaks for itself.

Roshdi

What does that upgrade include? You think the camera noise problem will be solved soon? What makes you think so?

I guess we WILL wait and see, but that's been Red's problem from the start; making promises and then making people wait. That's bad marketing. That and what were thinking when they designed the audio? Obviously they weren't thinking pro audio. That's a mistake. This sends a powerful and negative message to the market. "Hi, we're RED, we're absolutely clueless about pro audio." That's a rookie mistake. What else are they clueless about?

I find it really weird that so many people have become mesmerized by the "4k for only $17.5 mantra." Three years ago they made the announcement, but made people wait Way Too Long for shippable product. That's bad marketing. I had a friend who gave them $1k to "get on the list" and after two years got his money back and went elsewhere.

Although more narrowly segmented, the Red thing is even more torqued than the Mass Hypnosis of HDV. Finally, people regained their senses and figured out that while HDV has its uses, it's NOT HD. The coming of that realization took way too long, given the engineering data.

The window of acceptance won't stay open forever. Someone else will open a window and deliver. If Sony does it, they win both ways. They make money on the chip they sold Red and they profit from Red R&D. Sony has to be careful though, they can't undercut their more expensive cameras. There has to be a qualitative difference.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Sherif Choudhry]

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

Hi Roshdi:

It was only a few short years ago that Sony faced at least the threat of a class action lawsuit from disgruntled owners of the PD-150 camcorder for the cameras lack of even usable sound quality. In my experience, camcorder departments of manufacturers place very little emphasis on developing high quality audio circuitry for the simple fact that it doesn't pay for them to.
Dan

You know, I just found that out ! I dual-recorded (a) using a rode ntg1 direct to my Sony V1 (b) through rode ntg1 to a Joe Meek pre-amp/limiter direct to a digital recorder.

When I lined up and listed to both tracks and A/B'ed - frankly the direct to Sony V1 was very noisy compared to the mics going thru the Joe Meek. The Joe Meek track was very low noise, more "pristine" and well, just sounded professional. (There is another difference of course in that the HDV compresses the audio like crap, whereas I was recording 24bit .wav files into the DAW.

Now the Joe Meek is a BUDGET pre-amp that cost me £300 here in UK with a really nice limiter. So I can only assume that Sony used a £30 pre-amp in the V1 ! ;-)

I guess Canon/Panny will be similar in their approach. But just like SOny etc outsources lens manufacture, I am sure if it outsourced pre-amps, say to Focusrite or SoundPre, they could BRAND the camera as such and that would definitely give it an edge.

[Roshdi Alkadri]

hey TY, dont make me prank phone call you again:)

no seriously, thanks for all your advice on the phone. Great guy.

[Petri Kaipiainen]

I do not agree that all prosumer cams have bad audio. Canon XH-A1 for example has more than 90 dB of dynamic range when fed with line level, approaching the 16 bit theoretical limits, which itself approaches the limits of the human hearing. That should be enough; about 20 dB better than any $$$$ analog Nagra system just some years ago. It seems nothing is enough for some people. Not to underestimate the convenience of 24 bit safety, but still... 90 dB dynamic range is anyway better than any reproduction system and environment, and the end result will be compressed to within 50-40 dB range anyway.

[Wayne Brissette]

Originally Posted by Petri Kaipiainen

I do not agree that all prosumer cams have bad audio. Canon XH-A1 for example has more than 90 dB of dynamic range when fed with line level, approaching the 16 bit theoretical limits, which itself approaches the limits of the human hearing. That should be enough; about 20 dB better than any $$$$ analog Nagra system just some years ago.

Petri:

As you know, it's not all about numbers. If that was the case, then Azden would be looking and sounding pretty good. I've used the A1 on many occasions, it's OK, in fact better than some of the other cameras, but still doesn't match the audio I give them from the double-system I use. I will agree with you however, that different cameras provide you anything from OK to good audio. As pointed out in this thread, camera manufactures spend their money on the optical part of the camera, not the audio part of the camera. The quality of the components in the audio section are really what we need to concern ourselves with and how well they work together.

However, before I come off as an audio snob (I am somewhat of one, I know), I will say that with some of the cameras, you can get away with camera audio as long as you start out with a very clean signal. However, I wouldn't try to put these up on the big screen. Go watch any of the 48 hour film festivals that are shown on big screens. Even the best of the camera audio doesn't hold up in a movie theatre. Which is another point. I've worked on several things that were going straight to the web, those things while they were all given the double-system audio to use, probably didn't use it, and really don't need it, because of the nature of the delivery system.

But back to the original point, numbers and specs don't make up all of the audio experience.

Wayne

[Wayne Brissette]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

What does that upgrade include? You think the camera noise problem will be solved soon? What makes you think so?

They've somewhat solved the noise problem in one of the software upgrades. They turn off the fans when the camera rolls. This works well in places where the heat doesn't get above 80 Deg (27 C), but in Louisiana and New Mexico where a lot more productions have been giving the RED a try, this method doesn't work as well because you can only get a couple of minutes of filming done before the camera gets too hot. I'm sure they will solve this problem, they have to solve this problem, not every production is moving to Michigan (although it certainly seems that way).

Wayne

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Roshdi Alkadri

hey TY, dont make me prank phone call you again:)

no seriously, thanks for all your advice on the phone. Great guy.

I always enjoy our chats. Let me know if you get skype, we can talk for free.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by Wayne Brissette

As you know, it's not all about numbers. If that was the case, then Azden would be looking and sounding pretty good.
But back to the original point, numbers and specs don't make up all of the audio experience.
Wayne

Good point Wayne. I was telling Roshdi last night on the phone that I did audio on a trailer shoot a few years back. I was feeding a Varicam from my mixer. They did a big screen event with it and I was VERY interested in how my audio would hold up in a movie theater. Turns out it sounded better than I thought. I was very pleased.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Sherif Choudhry]

Originally Posted by Petri Kaipiainen

I do not agree that all prosumer cams have bad audio. Canon XH-A1 for example has more than 90 dB of dynamic range when fed with line level, approaching the 16 bit theoretical limits, which itself approaches the limits of the human hearing. That should be enough; about 20 dB better than any $$$$ analog Nagra system just some years ago. It seems nothing is enough for some people. Not to underestimate the convenience of 24 bit safety, but still... 90 dB dynamic range is anyway better than any reproduction system and environment, and the end result will be compressed to within 50-40 dB range anyway.

Hey I dont think this is about us whining and being ungrateful? I like my Sony V1. BUT why not put a Soundpre or Focusrite pre-amp into a HD camera? I'd pay for it ! Because I'm just paying somebody else anyway and its not as convenient. By the way I agree that its not all about numbers - I am editing a video right now and I'm having to deal with the fact that the sound through the Sony V1 pre-amp is noisy whereas through the other pre-amp its not. Just do an A/B comparison and you will see the light, I promise! :-)