Playback on music video at DVinfo.net

Marco Leavitt · July 7th, 2008, 06:36 PM

Shooting on super 16. How does timecode figure in to this? Producer wants to make sure they'll be able to sync everything up later. I do have access to a SoundDevices 702t if that's helpful.

Steve House · July 8th, 2008, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Leavitt

Shooting on super 16. How does timecode figure in to this? Producer wants to make sure they'll be able to sync everything up later. I do have access to a SoundDevices 702t if that's helpful.

Not all cameras are timecode capable so I assume they're using something something like the Aaton Super 16 that does. With a film workflow the audio recorder is the timecode master. Obviously that means the audio recorder has to HAVE a timecode output so dust off that 702t <g>. Assuming they're going to transfer to video for dailys and post on Avid, you should use a 48k sample rate and 30FPS, non-drop, free-run timecode. (Note - make sure to consult with the transfer facility on whether they prefer drop-frame or non-drop - non-drop is the stanard but some transfer labs differ.) You'd jam the camera's timecode generator from the recorder's timecode output or jam both of them from a common master like a Lockit MasterClock. Not quite sure the best way to handle playback - perhaps re-recording it on the production recorder as you roll to insure the recorded timecode mates with the music.

Brooks Harrington · July 8th, 2008, 09:34 AM

You don't need TC to the camera.
You need to do a sample rate conversion of your music which is most likely at 44.1K sample rate... to 48K. Plus it needs to play back on the 702T at the Pullup rate 48048K with 30NondropTC, assuming you are shooting at 24fps. Hook up a TC 'Dumbslate' to the 702 so it reads the TC off the 702 everytime you start the music. Not free run.

You might have to prepare different segments of music with countoffs to get the musicians going.

Use the Sample rate converted 48k music without pullup for your final music.

Steve House · July 8th, 2008, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brooks Harrington

You don't need TC to the camera.
You need to do a sample rate conversion of your music which is most likely at 44.1K sample rate... to 48K. Plus it needs to play back on the 702T at the Pullup rate 48048K with 30NondropTC, assuming you are shooting at 24fps. Hook up a TC 'Dumbslate' to the 702 so it reads the TC off the 702 everytime you start the music. Not free run.

You might have to prepare different segments of music with countoffs to get the musicians going.

Use the Sample rate converted 48k music without pullup for your final music.

Aaton and some other Super16 film cameras do accept timecode and stamp it to the film edges for each frame. I suggested free-run TOD timecode because that's what the Aaton Super16 camera uses - jamming them together allows the audio recorder and camera to be untethered. I assumed from Marco's original post that the director was planning on going that route. He needs to coordinate with telecine as to whether to shoot at 48000 or at 48048 as it depends on it will be subject to the 0.1% speed pulldown or not and just where the pulldown will be applied.

Alex Raskin · February 19th, 2010, 10:16 AM

May I expand the question to include HD video cameras?

Need to shoot a music video.

What is the best workflow, that would allow to easily sync video segments shot to the music score in post?

Alex Raskin · February 22nd, 2010, 06:39 PM

Found an answer, here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/silicon-...ml#post1489532

Paul Hudson · February 22nd, 2010, 08:57 PM

I did hundreds of high end videos in the 1990's we used a timecode smart slate that used a smpte striped channel from a dat or other source. This source also contained the music. Just shoot the slate before each take and sync in post. Very simple and fool proof.

Paul Hudson
Lizardlandvideo.com
Phoenix Video Productions

Alex Raskin · February 22nd, 2010, 09:28 PM

Paul, I agree. Except I use a laptop + BWF software as a slate. Seems cheaper and more universal than a timecode slate :))

Adam Gold · February 22nd, 2010, 10:18 PM

So if you really don't even need what BWF does -- all you need is a glorified stopwatch to sync four cams and don't care about synching to existing audio -- is there any software that can turn a laptop into a timecode slate? All I really need is a big digital display that goes down to frames...

Alex Raskin · February 23rd, 2010, 09:48 AM

I shoot with one cam primarily, sometimes two.

With one cam, syncing to the slate (or laptop screen w audio timecode displayed) is just fine.

But with 4 cams like in your case - would it really be practical to run around with the laptop to make it visible to all 4 cams, one by one, at the beginning of each shot?

4-cam shoot sounds like a big production, and in that case I probably would just go with feeding a BWF to them all, and then editing in Avid in post. Avid should be able to pick up aux TC from audio channel, so you could easily sync the clips on the timeline.

I also heard that Vegas and FCP can do the same thing with plug-ins.

Adam Gold · February 23rd, 2010, 12:07 PM

I guess I was envisioning something much simpler... just point the cams at the laptop sitting on the set, no running around necessary. The laptop could even be running a simple timer... just something visual to use to sync in post. It doesn't even have to be the correct time, as long as it's visible enough for the cams to see. Best if it indicates frames but not really necessary.

In the absence of this, I just created a DVD with color bars and a timecode window burn, running from -30;00 to 30;00, that I can just fire up and show to the cams at the beginning of each take. For fun, I also added a universal counting leader to the head so I could sync the audio blips if I can get the laptop to play loud enough.

All I know about BWF is what I read on the website referred to in your post -- I'm not even really clear on what it is or how you use it with a cam. Not sure how I would feed a BWF into my cams or if it's even necessary. I'm using Z5s with Premiere so I'm not even sure that's the right tool.

Sorry for dragging this OT -- it just got me thinking, which is always dangerous.

Rick Reineke · February 23rd, 2010, 01:29 PM

There appears to be some confusion here. BWF, (Broadcast Wave File) is not an application but a file type, essentially a garden variety WAVE file (.wav) with additional metadata, such as the time code stamp, which is not a continuous audio stream like Longitudinal Time Code. LTC can be recorded as an audio signal and played back to a reader. Vertical Interval Time Code (VITC) is embedded in the video signal and also continuous. Wave Agent and BFW Widget are applications primarily to change (or read) the BWF metadata after the fact.
Avid NLEs can read LTC and place a file in the timeline accordingly. I think FCP needs a plug-in to read LTC. (?) To my knowledge, no plug-in exists for Vegas, but it can import a BWF directly to the timeline.

July 7th, 2008, 06:36 PM	#1
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Playback on music video Shooting on super 16. How does timecode figure in to this? Producer wants to make sure they'll be able to sync everything up later. I do have access to a SoundDevices 702t if that's helpful.

February 22nd, 2010, 10:18 PM	#9
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	So if you really don't even need what BWF does -- all you need is a glorified stopwatch to sync four cams and don't care about synching to existing audio -- is there any software that can turn a laptop into a timecode slate? All I really need is a big digital display that goes down to frames... __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

February 23rd, 2010, 12:07 PM	#11
Adam Gold Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Woodinville, WA USA Posts: 3,467	I guess I was envisioning something much simpler... just point the cams at the laptop sitting on the set, no running around necessary. The laptop could even be running a simple timer... just something visual to use to sync in post. It doesn't even have to be the correct time, as long as it's visible enough for the cams to see. Best if it indicates frames but not really necessary. In the absence of this, I just created a DVD with color bars and a timecode window burn, running from -30;00 to 30;00, that I can just fire up and show to the cams at the beginning of each take. For fun, I also added a universal counting leader to the head so I could sync the audio blips if I can get the laptop to play loud enough. All I know about BWF is what I read on the website referred to in your post -- I'm not even really clear on what it is or how you use it with a cam. Not sure how I would feed a BWF into my cams or if it's even necessary. I'm using Z5s with Premiere so I'm not even sure that's the right tool. Sorry for dragging this OT -- it just got me thinking, which is always dangerous. __________________ "It can only be attributable to human error... This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error."

July 8th, 2008, 09:34 AM	#3
Brooks Harrington Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 152	You don't need TC to the camera. You need to do a sample rate conversion of your music which is most likely at 44.1K sample rate... to 48K. Plus it needs to play back on the 702T at the Pullup rate 48048K with 30NondropTC, assuming you are shooting at 24fps. Hook up a TC 'Dumbslate' to the 702 so it reads the TC off the 702 everytime you start the music. Not free run. You might have to prepare different segments of music with countoffs to get the musicians going. Use the Sample rate converted 48k music without pullup for your final music.

February 19th, 2010, 10:16 AM	#5
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	May I expand the question to include HD video cameras? Need to shoot a music video. What is the best workflow, that would allow to easily sync video segments shot to the music score in post?

February 22nd, 2010, 06:39 PM	#6
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Found an answer, here: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/silicon-...ml#post1489532

February 22nd, 2010, 08:57 PM	#7
Paul Hudson Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 37	I did hundreds of high end videos in the 1990's we used a timecode smart slate that used a smpte striped channel from a dat or other source. This source also contained the music. Just shoot the slate before each take and sync in post. Very simple and fool proof. Paul Hudson Lizardlandvideo.com Phoenix Video Productions

February 22nd, 2010, 09:28 PM	#8
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Paul, I agree. Except I use a laptop + BWF software as a slate. Seems cheaper and more universal than a timecode slate :))

February 23rd, 2010, 09:48 AM	#10
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	I shoot with one cam primarily, sometimes two. With one cam, syncing to the slate (or laptop screen w audio timecode displayed) is just fine. But with 4 cams like in your case - would it really be practical to run around with the laptop to make it visible to all 4 cams, one by one, at the beginning of each shot? 4-cam shoot sounds like a big production, and in that case I probably would just go with feeding a BWF to them all, and then editing in Avid in post. Avid should be able to pick up aux TC from audio channel, so you could easily sync the clips on the timeline. I also heard that Vegas and FCP can do the same thing with plug-ins.

February 23rd, 2010, 01:29 PM	#12
Rick Reineke Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New York Posts: 2,039	There appears to be some confusion here. BWF, (Broadcast Wave File) is not an application but a file type, essentially a garden variety WAVE file (.wav) with additional metadata, such as the time code stamp, which is not a continuous audio stream like Longitudinal Time Code. LTC can be recorded as an audio signal and played back to a reader. Vertical Interval Time Code (VITC) is embedded in the video signal and also continuous. Wave Agent and BFW Widget are applications primarily to change (or read) the BWF metadata after the fact. Avid NLEs can read LTC and place a file in the timeline accordingly. I think FCP needs a plug-in to read LTC. (?) To my knowledge, no plug-in exists for Vegas, but it can import a BWF directly to the timeline.