Capturing dialogue

Spencer Dickson · May 29th, 2008, 07:19 PM

It seems that sound devices are the only ones in the pro price-range available at B&H. Would I be able to get by with only 2 channels, or will I need 4? What happens when the HD crashes? Can you replace them?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...n_Compact.html

Chris Swanberg · May 29th, 2008, 08:10 PM

Now you have expanded the idea to include sound recording. Which is ok. I am exploring that area myself. Field mixers have not changed in a long time. Recording devices have.

The Edirol R44 (4 channel 48 bit...) has my attention at the moment... $800. As Dan says the camera is not usually the best place to record sound (trust me I know I have the SONY Z-1 with the awful compression in HD). Ty is the consummate professional. Not everyone can afford to emulate his high standards, but he maintains them appropriately. If dual sound is what you are after (e.g. a second recording device that is better than your camera,) then you have opened an entire new arena.

Synch is unchanged in that arena on the low end since the 1930/40's. A synch slate. Works like a champ. Line up the audio spike with the closing of the slate on the video. Modern devices have time code and can synch with the camera TC... $$$$

You seem like a moving target. What is it exactly you want? Dan and Ty are board authoriities in my mind.... maybe if you can be more concrete in what you are after and your budget it would be easier.

Spencer Dickson · May 29th, 2008, 09:26 PM

I will be concrete about this gear once I know what it is I need exactly. Note that I don't have a background in audio gear, so it has really been the last couple of days where I have been making a real effort to learn about it.

Marco Leavitt · May 29th, 2008, 09:43 PM

Spencer, I think a decent recorder will blow too much of your budget, and a cheap one isn't worth having.

For me, the order of importance on major items would be:

Pole - Minimum is K-Tek Avalon for $250
Shotgun, hypercardiod combo
Mixer
Recorder (way down on the list)

Notice I don't mention brands (except for the pole), as there are just too many options. You will need decent headphones, cables and a shockmount and probably wind protection. After you get the pole and other essentials, I'd blow most of the rest of the budget on the best mics you can afford. The SoundDevices MM1 is a cheap way to get phantom power, low-cut filter, limiter and some control over gain, but it isn't a mixer. Still, it will be useful to you in the future even after you get a mixer, so it's a solid purchase.

Spencer Dickson · May 29th, 2008, 10:29 PM

So I should record the audio to my EX1 then, if I don't get a sound recorder? If I use the crappy XLR inputs won't it ruin otherwise good sound?

Marco Leavitt · May 29th, 2008, 10:38 PM

No, the XLR inputs won't hurt the audio. It's quite a good thing you have XLR inputs actually. The reason I say hold off on double system is that you have a really low budget here. If you can't get good audio on your camera, you won't get it with a dedicated recorder either. It's really all about getting good placement with good mics and recording a healthy signal. Once you're doing all that, then it's time to start worrying about a separate recorder -- and the separate person who is going to be operating it. Before that even, you have to figure out who you're going to get to boom. If they don't know what they are doing you are doomed at the start.

Jim Andrada · May 29th, 2008, 11:38 PM

Spencer,

I noticed in one of your posts that you were asking if the pre-amp was what made the Schoeps so expensive and if you couldn't just get the mic itself.

The Schoeps is a modular system (as are some others) so you need both a microphone capsule and a "pre-amp" to have a working microphone. They make many kinds of interchangeable capsules that screw into the amplifier base, which in turn connects to your XLR cable.

So you need a minimum of one amplifier base and one mic capsule (in this case a hypercardioid capsule.)

And yes, they are very expensive, particularly as they just had a major price increase recently because of the falling dollar.

Very expensive, but really excellent mics and most people think they're worth every penny. I think the mic is the most critical part of the hardware equation. Recorders, mixers, whatever are also important, but the mic is what grabs the sound for you.

Stelios Koukouvitakis · May 30th, 2008, 01:47 AM

Hi Spencer

I am currently finishing post production of my first short.
I highly recommend to hire an experienced sound recordist with his gear or consult him and go rent together.

It will make a huge difference to the sound quality you will end up, even if he uses cheaper equipment. This is what the pros do!

It doesn't make sense to buy even affordable equipment unless you are a sound recordist yourself or a production company.

Also take my word for it and shoot a couple of shorts first, from start to end.
The stuff you're asking should be tried and learnt in small scale before jumping in a feature.

Good luck,
Stelios

Stelios Koukouvitakis · May 30th, 2008, 01:58 AM

To answer your initial question, you will need to record sound dual system;
this is on-camera through the XLR inputs to have a synched master (even with poor audio) AND on a professional external sound recorder for maximum quality and flexibity.

We used the TASCAM HD-P2 with allows 2 uncompressed audio chanells recorded on Memory cards and has robust make quality.

Stelios

Spencer Dickson · May 30th, 2008, 02:51 AM

How marked will the quality difference be between the Tascam and the Sound Devices 702T?

Spencer Dickson · May 30th, 2008, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Brockett

If you are a do it yourselfer and are not hiring a sound mixer, I would advise against double system sound, it will be more trouble than it is worth.

I come from the school of do-it-yourself. Is it THAT difficult to do? Keep in mind that my shooting style is quite static. If pushed, I can light the scenes, set the camera up, press record, slate it and get my audio gear on and operate a boom. It will be painstaking, but, I can afford to take my time, considering the types of projects I am doing. Laugh all you want. It is pretty absurd, but it is what I am willing to do for good sound. If I had the money, I would hire real actors and a 2-3 man crew, secure good locations, and complete principal photography in a couple weeks. I don't have that kind of cash right now, so I need to be more flexible with my time frames, and as such cannot afford even a couple of sound guys. At least not yet.

I am not idiotic though. If it really is EXTREMELY difficult to record dual-system audio, perhaps I will put up with the mediocre audio my crappy little camera picks up. haha.

Stelios Koukouvitakis · May 30th, 2008, 04:01 AM

Haven't tested the 702T but for the same specifications, it seems more expensive than the Tascam.

Again for what it costs (around $1000) you can shoot a nice short with a budget.

Proffesionals don't always work for money; if they really like your project they may come for free especially if you be honest and tell them that you are a no-budget. And as far as I know, Canada has a good pool of talent.

Steve House · May 30th, 2008, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spencer Dickson

Is this the same mic you mean?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...phone_Set.html

That set is over six times more expensive than the Oktava. Is it because of the included pre-amp? Can't seem to find just the mic on B&H.

The Schoeps is a modular microphone (as is the Octava) which means that a single complete microphone consists of two components, a preamp section plus one of a variety of different available capsules chosen based on the needs of the situation. The 'preamp' referred to in the product description is an integral part of the microphone itself that powers the capsule and is not the same thing as a mic preamp or mixer that is placed between the mic and the camera or recorder to boost the signal level. The package your link points to is for one complete mic kit consisting of the base preamp module plus the hypercardioid capsule. If you want other pickup patterns, capsules for omni, cardioid, etc are also available separately for about a kilobuck apiece - you unscrew the hyper capsule and replace it with one of the types when desired.

Steve House · May 30th, 2008, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spencer Dickson

I come from the school of do-it-yourself. Is it THAT difficult to do? Keep in mind that my shooting style is quite static. If pushed, I can light the scenes, set the camera up, press record, slate it and get my audio gear on and operate a boom. It will be painstaking, but, I can afford to take my time, considering the types of projects I am doing. Laugh all you want. It is pretty absurd, but it is what I am willing to do for good sound. If I had the money, I would hire real actors and a 2-3 man crew, secure good locations, and complete principal photography in a couple weeks. I don't have that kind of cash right now, so I need to be more flexible with my time frames, and as such cannot afford even a couple of sound guys. At least not yet.

I am not idiotic though. If it really is EXTREMELY difficult to record dual-system audio, perhaps I will put up with the mediocre audio my crappy little camera picks up. haha.

The problem with extreme DIY is that you only have two hands and can only split your attention a few directions at once and do it all justice. Mic aiming on a boom needs constant adjustment as the scene plays out and the action and dialog shift around. Signal levels and the subjective sound itself need constant attention and monitoring throughout the scene - they are NOT a 'set it up and let 'er rip' kind of detail. At the same time, the picture in your camera viewfinder also needs constant attention and monitoring, constantly refining the framing and focus visually. You can't keep your eyes on the camera viewfinder AND the mixer's meters AND the direction the mic is pointing; your hands can't be on the camera controls and tripod head arm AND on the mixer's faders AND on the mic boom, all at the same time - just can't be done by a single human.

Dan Brockett · May 30th, 2008, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spencer Dickson

I come from the school of do-it-yourself. Is it THAT difficult to do? Keep in mind that my shooting style is quite static. If pushed, I can light the scenes, set the camera up, press record, slate it and get my audio gear on and operate a boom. It will be painstaking, but, I can afford to take my time, considering the types of projects I am doing. Laugh all you want. It is pretty absurd, but it is what I am willing to do for good sound. If I had the money, I would hire real actors and a 2-3 man crew, secure good locations, and complete principal photography in a couple weeks. I don't have that kind of cash right now, so I need to be more flexible with my time frames, and as such cannot afford even a couple of sound guys. At least not yet.

I am not idiotic though. If it really is EXTREMELY difficult to record dual-system audio, perhaps I will put up with the mediocre audio my crappy little camera picks up. haha.

Hi Spencer:

Do you watch 24? If you watch the Season 5 DVD, I shot the piece, "Music By Sean Callery" by myself. That was two mics, two moving cameras, all of the lighting and prompting Sean with questions. I am really proud of that piece, not that it looks that great, it doesn't because of the one man band factor. I was proud because I actually achieved a two camera shoot by myself that worked well for the situation. Adding dual system sound in that sort of situation is insanity, you will screw up either your cameras or sound at some point.

The EX-1 sound is not that bad. I just began a series of four pieces for Paramount and we are using the EX-1 sound, its pretty clear and doesn't have too much distortion. Just make sure that you use manual levels, never auto levels. Use good mics and go for it. Double system sound is probably most evident in theatrical releases where the sound will be pumped through a huge theater sound system and really amplified loudly, that's where those differences are most apparent. In television or home video, the differences are still apparent but many different productions only use camera sound. Almost all of the reality and semi reality you see on cable is in camera sound, it's not usually that bad, depending on the camera.

I shot that Sean Callery piece on two Z1s. Even though I did not particularly like the sound on the Z1s, it worked fine and the EX-1 has considerably better quality.

Get a crew of some kind, filmmaking is a collaborative sport. I have shot a lot of DVD bonus material by myself and the quality always suffers. I always tell the clients that if I can have a sound mixer, the end product will be better. Sometimes they care, sometimes they don't.

Good luck,

Dan

May 30th, 2008, 01:47 AM	#23
Stelios Koukouvitakis New Boot Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Athens. Greece Posts: 11	Hire sound person! Hi Spencer I am currently finishing post production of my first short. I highly recommend to hire an experienced sound recordist with his gear or consult him and go rent together. It will make a huge difference to the sound quality you will end up, even if he uses cheaper equipment. This is what the pros do! It doesn't make sense to buy even affordable equipment unless you are a sound recordist yourself or a production company. Also take my word for it and shoot a couple of shorts first, from start to end. The stuff you're asking should be tried and learnt in small scale before jumping in a feature. Good luck, Stelios

May 29th, 2008, 07:19 PM	#16
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	It seems that sound devices are the only ones in the pro price-range available at B&H. Would I be able to get by with only 2 channels, or will I need 4? What happens when the HD crashes? Can you replace them? http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...n_Compact.html

May 29th, 2008, 08:10 PM	#17
Chris Swanberg Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 904	Now you have expanded the idea to include sound recording. Which is ok. I am exploring that area myself. Field mixers have not changed in a long time. Recording devices have. The Edirol R44 (4 channel 48 bit...) has my attention at the moment... $800. As Dan says the camera is not usually the best place to record sound (trust me I know I have the SONY Z-1 with the awful compression in HD). Ty is the consummate professional. Not everyone can afford to emulate his high standards, but he maintains them appropriately. If dual sound is what you are after (e.g. a second recording device that is better than your camera,) then you have opened an entire new arena. Synch is unchanged in that arena on the low end since the 1930/40's. A synch slate. Works like a champ. Line up the audio spike with the closing of the slate on the video. Modern devices have time code and can synch with the camera TC... $$$$ You seem like a moving target. What is it exactly you want? Dan and Ty are board authoriities in my mind.... maybe if you can be more concrete in what you are after and your budget it would be easier.

May 29th, 2008, 09:26 PM	#18
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	I will be concrete about this gear once I know what it is I need exactly. Note that I don't have a background in audio gear, so it has really been the last couple of days where I have been making a real effort to learn about it.

May 29th, 2008, 09:43 PM	#19
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Spencer, I think a decent recorder will blow too much of your budget, and a cheap one isn't worth having. For me, the order of importance on major items would be: Pole - Minimum is K-Tek Avalon for $250 Shotgun, hypercardiod combo Mixer Recorder (way down on the list) Notice I don't mention brands (except for the pole), as there are just too many options. You will need decent headphones, cables and a shockmount and probably wind protection. After you get the pole and other essentials, I'd blow most of the rest of the budget on the best mics you can afford. The SoundDevices MM1 is a cheap way to get phantom power, low-cut filter, limiter and some control over gain, but it isn't a mixer. Still, it will be useful to you in the future even after you get a mixer, so it's a solid purchase.

May 29th, 2008, 10:29 PM	#20
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	So I should record the audio to my EX1 then, if I don't get a sound recorder? If I use the crappy XLR inputs won't it ruin otherwise good sound?

May 29th, 2008, 10:38 PM	#21
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	No, the XLR inputs won't hurt the audio. It's quite a good thing you have XLR inputs actually. The reason I say hold off on double system is that you have a really low budget here. If you can't get good audio on your camera, you won't get it with a dedicated recorder either. It's really all about getting good placement with good mics and recording a healthy signal. Once you're doing all that, then it's time to start worrying about a separate recorder -- and the separate person who is going to be operating it. Before that even, you have to figure out who you're going to get to boom. If they don't know what they are doing you are doomed at the start.

May 29th, 2008, 11:38 PM	#22
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	Spencer, I noticed in one of your posts that you were asking if the pre-amp was what made the Schoeps so expensive and if you couldn't just get the mic itself. The Schoeps is a modular system (as are some others) so you need both a microphone capsule and a "pre-amp" to have a working microphone. They make many kinds of interchangeable capsules that screw into the amplifier base, which in turn connects to your XLR cable. So you need a minimum of one amplifier base and one mic capsule (in this case a hypercardioid capsule.) And yes, they are very expensive, particularly as they just had a major price increase recently because of the falling dollar. Very expensive, but really excellent mics and most people think they're worth every penny. I think the mic is the most critical part of the hardware equation. Recorders, mixers, whatever are also important, but the mic is what grabs the sound for you.

May 30th, 2008, 01:58 AM	#24
Stelios Koukouvitakis New Boot Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Athens. Greece Posts: 11	To answer your initial question, you will need to record sound dual system; this is on-camera through the XLR inputs to have a synched master (even with poor audio) AND on a professional external sound recorder for maximum quality and flexibity. We used the TASCAM HD-P2 with allows 2 uncompressed audio chanells recorded on Memory cards and has robust make quality. Stelios

May 30th, 2008, 02:51 AM	#25
Spencer Dickson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Canada Posts: 141	How marked will the quality difference be between the Tascam and the Sound Devices 702T?

May 30th, 2008, 04:01 AM	#27
Stelios Koukouvitakis New Boot Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Athens. Greece Posts: 11	Haven't tested the 702T but for the same specifications, it seems more expensive than the Tascam. Again for what it costs (around $1000) you can shoot a nice short with a budget. Proffesionals don't always work for money; if they really like your project they may come for free especially if you be honest and tell them that you are a no-budget. And as far as I know, Canada has a good pool of talent.