Cardioid vs. Hypercardioid? INDOORS

Craig Irving · May 15th, 2008, 08:26 AM

You both are really good spokes-people for Schoeps.
Every time I consider purchasing the new Sennheiser MKH-8000 mics, you guys always say stuff like this to suck me RIGHT back into the CMC641.

It's a constant back and forth between saving money and sacrificing quality or spending more and getting the best.

Dan Keaton · May 15th, 2008, 08:34 AM

Dear Craig,

I have other good microphones for various purposes.

I like the Sennheiser MKH-60 for outdoor booming. The MKH-70 is a special purpose microphone that also has its uses.

But, the indoors, the Schoeps CMC-641 is superior to the Sennheiser MKH-60 and the MKH-70 is useless in a reverberant environment.

One could use the Schoeps outside (and many do), but the MKH-60 is much less sensitive to handling noise.

So, for indoor dialog, the Schoeps CMC-641 is the "gold standard".

As Ty stated, once you use one, it becomes obvious that it is a better, much better microphone for indoor use.

Dan Keaton · May 15th, 2008, 08:43 AM

Dear Craig,

The new Sennheiser 8000 series may be the gold standard or considered fully equal to the Schoeps some day.

But today, the Schoeps has instant credibility for those in the know.

Phil Bambridge · May 15th, 2008, 06:50 PM

Right now my grand total is around £5k, maybe £5,500. So what's that, close to $10k?
Around half is on audio, the rest is on the camera (Panasonic DVX100B, Indicam Pilot sled, Vinten Pro6 tripod and a lightstand + reflector. That's right, no lights yet, except for that really really big one in the sky).

Don't get me wrong, the very best audio can be yours for stupid amounts less than the best cameras. Okay, I went for a last gen SD camera, but even now, it puts a very credible image on screen. To better that in SD, how much would I have to spend? Quite a bit. On the other hand, while the difference isn't much as a percentage (compared with the difference between, say, my camera and a CineAlta F90), it is still something. And when you've heard the difference between the on-cam, built-in mic from a £100 camcorder, and, say, one of Rode's offerings, the gulf between them is so staggering that people think they're reached audio nirvana.

I don't doubt that if I had money coming in that I'd upgrade from my Oktava, and yes, the Schoeps would be very high on the list if was chosing from what's out there now. I wouldn't have lost much, as I can sell mics for not a massive loss, and what I have should last, with care, for many years, whereas the camera I might need to upgrade a great deal sooner.

Now I have my DPA and the AT899s (the way I look at it, they came free with the wireless kit- seriously, if I'd bought the bits of the kit separately, to avoid buying those mics, I'd have saved £2.), I'm in no rush to buy more audio kit. Maybe a large diaphragm mic for VO at some point, and only after that might I dip into my pocket to finance something extra. I think a basic lighting kit has to come next.

Oh, though I wouldn't have it any other way, this mix of pros and amateurs, since if we had some kind of apartheid imposed, the latter would definitely miss out...and I dare say that once in a blue moon the latter get to demonstrate some mother-of-invention ingenuity that the pros can make use of. Or if not that, then provide some nostalgic chuckles.

Love to know what the DPs make of all this though. Do they have conversations where they tell people off for not spending more on the camera? I can just imagine it- "it's the picture, stupid". And what about the deaf? I'm only very slightly joking.

And the wardrobe department probably think that we should be spending 90% of the budget on clothes, what with them makething the man...

Pfff- I've done it again. Never let it be said I let lack of experience stand between myself and voicing my opinion, such as it is.

Ty Ford · May 15th, 2008, 07:07 PM

Phil,

You and I are more alike than not. I bought the Canon XL2, a $2K tripod and enough lights for 4 point lighting. I saw the HDV cameras and, while stunned by the picture, I knew the math behind them was weak due to the amount of compression of both audio and video. Spank me, but that's what I did.

I'd keep the oktavas for perilous use or plant mics rather than sell them. You won't get much for them anyway.

You don't really need a LD mic for VO. A good SD works fine.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Phil Bambridge · May 15th, 2008, 08:33 PM

Going definitely OT now, but I do recall that with VO either you or Bill Davis maybe, going back and forth about good mics to use, I seem to recall other people at least claiming sizable professional experience too, and there being very little agreement on what was best to use- from that I took that there is no right answer, and that what's right for one voice is posion for another, and that all you can do is try it out. Unlike being in the wild, VO has to offer you the best* chance for controlling all the variables, so you can get away with your favourite choice.

But I also recall someone saying that, when you can't experiement, a LD mic is most likely to give you that close sound. I liked me on the DPA 4061 actually, out of everything I've got- though naturally, that could be the "I always sound best on my most expensive mic" syndrome. The Oktava (there I go again) is good to my ears, but even with the omni is sensitive to its position reletive to the talent. I think the pop filter could work well if I use it to assess the best place for them to put their lips. If only I could get the poets to stand still and not be pacing about like if they were on stage! Superglue might be called for.

I suspect though, that the intimate feel is as much, if not mostly, a function of the room. I really need to start looking around for where I can most economically treat for that sound. At least for what works for my voice.

Oh, also OT, but Ty- was watching repeats of Homicide...and guess who I saw tipping clams into the water?

* For varying values of "best".

Jim Andrada · May 15th, 2008, 08:43 PM

I think another strong point in favor of the Schoeps is the fact that it's a modular system. Once you have the amplifier module, the price of additional individual modules, while still definitely expensive, is a lot less heart stopping, and with a few capsules in your kit, you have great flexibility.

For what I do, I use mostly M/S setups and with two amps, a figure 8 and a couple of different modules, I've been a pretty happy camper so far. I recently added a 41 capsule and maybe next year will add an additional capsule or a 3rd amp

Ty Ford · May 15th, 2008, 08:49 PM

DNR Officer Guskie?

Shhhh!

Regards,

Ty Ford

May 15th, 2008, 08:34 AM	#32
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Craig, I have other good microphones for various purposes. I like the Sennheiser MKH-60 for outdoor booming. The MKH-70 is a special purpose microphone that also has its uses. But, the indoors, the Schoeps CMC-641 is superior to the Sennheiser MKH-60 and the MKH-70 is useless in a reverberant environment. One could use the Schoeps outside (and many do), but the MKH-60 is much less sensitive to handling noise. So, for indoor dialog, the Schoeps CMC-641 is the "gold standard". As Ty stated, once you use one, it becomes obvious that it is a better, much better microphone for indoor use. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

May 15th, 2008, 08:43 AM	#33
Dan Keaton Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Augusta Georgia Posts: 5,421	Dear Craig, The new Sennheiser 8000 series may be the gold standard or considered fully equal to the Schoeps some day. But today, the Schoeps has instant credibility for those in the know. __________________ Dan Keaton Augusta Georgia

May 15th, 2008, 07:07 PM	#35
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Phil, You and I are more alike than not. I bought the Canon XL2, a $2K tripod and enough lights for 4 point lighting. I saw the HDV cameras and, while stunned by the picture, I knew the math behind them was weak due to the amount of compression of both audio and video. Spank me, but that's what I did. I'd keep the oktavas for perilous use or plant mics rather than sell them. You won't get much for them anyway. You don't really need a LD mic for VO. A good SD works fine. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

May 15th, 2008, 08:49 PM	#38
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	DNR Officer Guskie? Shhhh! Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

May 15th, 2008, 08:26 AM	#31
Craig Irving Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Posts: 539	You both are really good spokes-people for Schoeps. Every time I consider purchasing the new Sennheiser MKH-8000 mics, you guys always say stuff like this to suck me RIGHT back into the CMC641. It's a constant back and forth between saving money and sacrificing quality or spending more and getting the best.

May 15th, 2008, 06:50 PM	#34
Phil Bambridge Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bristol, England Posts: 78	Right now my grand total is around £5k, maybe £5,500. So what's that, close to $10k? Around half is on audio, the rest is on the camera (Panasonic DVX100B, Indicam Pilot sled, Vinten Pro6 tripod and a lightstand + reflector. That's right, no lights yet, except for that really really big one in the sky). Don't get me wrong, the very best audio can be yours for stupid amounts less than the best cameras. Okay, I went for a last gen SD camera, but even now, it puts a very credible image on screen. To better that in SD, how much would I have to spend? Quite a bit. On the other hand, while the difference isn't much as a percentage (compared with the difference between, say, my camera and a CineAlta F90), it is still something. And when you've heard the difference between the on-cam, built-in mic from a £100 camcorder, and, say, one of Rode's offerings, the gulf between them is so staggering that people think they're reached audio nirvana. I don't doubt that if I had money coming in that I'd upgrade from my Oktava, and yes, the Schoeps would be very high on the list if was chosing from what's out there now. I wouldn't have lost much, as I can sell mics for not a massive loss, and what I have should last, with care, for many years, whereas the camera I might need to upgrade a great deal sooner. Now I have my DPA and the AT899s (the way I look at it, they came free with the wireless kit- seriously, if I'd bought the bits of the kit separately, to avoid buying those mics, I'd have saved £2.), I'm in no rush to buy more audio kit. Maybe a large diaphragm mic for VO at some point, and only after that might I dip into my pocket to finance something extra. I think a basic lighting kit has to come next. Oh, though I wouldn't have it any other way, this mix of pros and amateurs, since if we had some kind of apartheid imposed, the latter would definitely miss out...and I dare say that once in a blue moon the latter get to demonstrate some mother-of-invention ingenuity that the pros can make use of. Or if not that, then provide some nostalgic chuckles. Love to know what the DPs make of all this though. Do they have conversations where they tell people off for not spending more on the camera? I can just imagine it- "it's the picture, stupid". And what about the deaf? I'm only very slightly joking. And the wardrobe department probably think that we should be spending 90% of the budget on clothes, what with them makething the man... Pfff- I've done it again. Never let it be said I let lack of experience stand between myself and voicing my opinion, such as it is.

May 15th, 2008, 08:33 PM	#36
Phil Bambridge Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Bristol, England Posts: 78	Going definitely OT now, but I do recall that with VO either you or Bill Davis maybe, going back and forth about good mics to use, I seem to recall other people at least claiming sizable professional experience too, and there being very little agreement on what was best to use- from that I took that there is no right answer, and that what's right for one voice is posion for another, and that all you can do is try it out. Unlike being in the wild, VO has to offer you the best* chance for controlling all the variables, so you can get away with your favourite choice. But I also recall someone saying that, when you can't experiement, a LD mic is most likely to give you that close sound. I liked me on the DPA 4061 actually, out of everything I've got- though naturally, that could be the "I always sound best on my most expensive mic" syndrome. The Oktava (there I go again) is good to my ears, but even with the omni is sensitive to its position reletive to the talent. I think the pop filter could work well if I use it to assess the best place for them to put their lips. If only I could get the poets to stand still and not be pacing about like if they were on stage! Superglue might be called for. I suspect though, that the intimate feel is as much, if not mostly, a function of the room. I really need to start looking around for where I can most economically treat for that sound. At least for what works for my voice. Oh, also OT, but Ty- was watching repeats of Homicide...and guess who I saw tipping clams into the water? * For varying values of "best".

May 15th, 2008, 08:43 PM	#37
Jim Andrada Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,211	I think another strong point in favor of the Schoeps is the fact that it's a modular system. Once you have the amplifier module, the price of additional individual modules, while still definitely expensive, is a lot less heart stopping, and with a few capsules in your kit, you have great flexibility. For what I do, I use mostly M/S setups and with two amps, a figure 8 and a couple of different modules, I've been a pretty happy camper so far. I recently added a 41 capsule and maybe next year will add an additional capsule or a 3rd amp