Live Band Audio... Feed was too loud! at DVinfo.net

J.J. Kim · March 2nd, 2008, 05:32 PM

http://www.vimeo.com/746517

Please help me...
I recorded last night, and everything was too loud...
da** soundboard guy..
my fault, too, cause audio meter was fine, and the whole place was too loud that i couldn't tell if it was the speaks in the room or my camera.
i am editing with Premiere CS3, and i also have soundbooth.
Thank you ahead so much!

JJ

Matt Gottshalk · March 2nd, 2008, 05:39 PM

Nothing you can do with that.

Allen Plowman · March 2nd, 2008, 05:51 PM

there is no such thing as "too loud" (I love loud music)
What you are hearing is clipping. if the signal is higher than a device can handle, the peaks get clipped off. this can be very damaging to P.A. equipment. It could have been clipped in the main soundboard, and your levels could have appeared perfectly normal. If the signal was in fact clipped at the main board, the busic would have sounded much cleaner and louder had he not clipped it.
I would suggest a couple of things. first off, there is no way to save that signal that would be cost effective (if its possible at all). next time, remember, you can not trust anyone but yourself. if you get a live feed from anyone, make sure you have your own backup. the cameras on board mic set on auto gain would have given you more usable audio than what you ended up with. possibly get a small standalone recorder like the H2.

Steve Oakley · March 2nd, 2008, 06:19 PM

you fed line level into the camera set a mic level. it will clip as you found out even if the levels seem ok. ALWAYS ask what you are being fed, and better to start at line level first on the camera side. if the levels are good at line, thats what you are getting. if you see nothing or very little, its mic level and change. don't worry, we've all made this beginner mistake, ONCE !

there's not much you can do to fix it either. there is supposed to be a VERY expensive plugin to protools that can declip, but I haven't found anyone around who has it.

and FWIW, music can and often is too loud. My first indicator sound is too loud ? pain in my left ear. I mean real pain. hearing damage from excessive sound is VERY REAL. talk to anyone who was worked in the concert / music / event biz for 10 or more years and you'll get a very different opinion about "it can't be too loud". If I am shooting a show, I now always bring 30db cut ear plugs, and also provide them for crew. once you damage your hearing, it can not be fixed.

Allen Plowman · March 2nd, 2008, 06:30 PM

your right, hearing damage can result from too much volume/exposure. but from a technical standpoint of recording, it was a matter of someone not having the levels set properly. its possible for that camera to record clean sound with the band playing at 140 db

Ty Ford · March 2nd, 2008, 08:22 PM

To answer that question you have to start from the top and follow it.

1. Did the mic capsule distort due to high SPL?
2. Did the audio distort after the mic capsule, but still in the mic electronics?
3. Did the audio distort at the preamp input or some intermediate stage?
4. Did the audio distort at the A/D converter?

Prolly left something out, but yes, I think with the right mic, pads and gear
you can record 140 dB SPL.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Martin Catt · March 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM

Another suggestion: monitor while recording with headphones. You'll hear real-time if the levels are too high and be able to correct live. You'll need a "real" pair of headphones, ones that fit over the ears (or maybe a set of earbuds that seal REAL well) so you can overcome the room sound and concentrate on the recorded sound levels. I bought a set of Sony MDR 7506 headphones on the strength of recommendations from the audio greybeards on this forum, and have never regretted it. Best $90 I ever spent for audio gear.

The real issue is that one person can't really do audio and video at the same time, particularly in a live venue.

Martin

Ty Ford · March 2nd, 2008, 08:30 PM

Good point on the headphones. I've recently switched from the Sony MDR 7506 to the new Audio-Technica ATH- M50.

Regards,

Ty Ford

J.J. Kim · March 2nd, 2008, 08:47 PM

thank you so much for all the feedback..
i will do my best based on what everyone told me.
i had apple earbud on which are pretty nice. but it was really loud, i mean *really* loud.
bass was so strong that the footage was shaking.
I have sony mdr-v300 which is pretty good.
the show was shot by me as a fan, not being paid or anything, so it was hard for me to find someone who would do just audio. it would definitely helpful, though.
thank you all.

jj

Wayne Brissette · March 2nd, 2008, 09:55 PM

On the headphones part... when doing live rock music, nearly all headphones don't work, you can't really hear anything worthwhile. The problem is they let in too much of the outside music, so then you play this game of trying to turn up your headphone output and then everything is just a mess...

There are a couple of solutions. First try using earphones designed for loud music such as the Etymotic 4 series : http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er4.aspx

Or you can go the route that Glen Trew put together in the Remote Audio HN-7506 headset: http://www.trewaudio.com/store/produ...cat=109&page=1

Either way, you're knocking out 40+ dB of outside noise and that's what you have to do to monitor in loud venues.

Wayne

Michael Foo · March 2nd, 2008, 10:10 PM

There is also these, that are custom molded to your ears. However, they are quite pricey...

http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...escription.php

Brooks Harrington · March 3rd, 2008, 02:27 PM

Nothing you can do about that sound... it's hopeless. Find some one that taped the concert and replace the sound.

Jimmy Tuffrey · March 3rd, 2008, 02:38 PM

Wow !! what distortion pedal has that guitarist got ?

Marco Leavitt · March 3rd, 2008, 03:39 PM

Man that stinks. I find a lot of the time the mixer doesn't even know the difference between mic and line level, let alone the difference between pro and consumer line level. They look at me like I have two heads when I ask. I usually assume it's line level, and if I find I'm not getting good levels with the gain cranked, try it at mic level. There's also the problem of distortion occuring further up the chain so even if you have everything matched it still sounds like crap.

J.J. Kim · March 3rd, 2008, 07:07 PM

I kinda gave a sign to soundboard guy to turn down mine , and he gave me his thumb up. i guess he didn't mean "good to go" instead "i will bring it up as much as possible so that it screw you over"
Tim Reynolds (the guitarist) has done mostly acoustic by himself, and it was the first time for me to film his new band that was created this year. I will what to do next time...
i am also thinking about getting a new set of headphone also.dont' know which one yet since i'm kinda tight on budget.
thank you all..

JJ

March 2nd, 2008, 05:32 PM	#1
J.J. Kim Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Wheeling, IL Posts: 270	Live Band Audio... Feed was too loud! http://www.vimeo.com/746517 Please help me... I recorded last night, and everything was too loud... da** soundboard guy.. my fault, too, cause audio meter was fine, and the whole place was too loud that i couldn't tell if it was the speaks in the room or my camera. i am editing with Premiere CS3, and i also have soundbooth. Thank you ahead so much! JJ

March 2nd, 2008, 05:51 PM	#3
Allen Plowman Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Paradise, california Posts: 353	there is no such thing as "too loud" (I love loud music) What you are hearing is clipping. if the signal is higher than a device can handle, the peaks get clipped off. this can be very damaging to P.A. equipment. It could have been clipped in the main soundboard, and your levels could have appeared perfectly normal. If the signal was in fact clipped at the main board, the busic would have sounded much cleaner and louder had he not clipped it. I would suggest a couple of things. first off, there is no way to save that signal that would be cost effective (if its possible at all). next time, remember, you can not trust anyone but yourself. if you get a live feed from anyone, make sure you have your own backup. the cameras on board mic set on auto gain would have given you more usable audio than what you ended up with. possibly get a small standalone recorder like the H2. __________________ "What I need is an exact list of specific unknown problems we might encounter."

March 2nd, 2008, 06:30 PM	#5
Allen Plowman Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Paradise, california Posts: 353	your right, hearing damage can result from too much volume/exposure. but from a technical standpoint of recording, it was a matter of someone not having the levels set properly. its possible for that camera to record clean sound with the band playing at 140 db __________________ "What I need is an exact list of specific unknown problems we might encounter."

March 2nd, 2008, 08:22 PM	#6
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	To answer that question you have to start from the top and follow it. 1. Did the mic capsule distort due to high SPL? 2. Did the audio distort after the mic capsule, but still in the mic electronics? 3. Did the audio distort at the preamp input or some intermediate stage? 4. Did the audio distort at the A/D converter? Prolly left something out, but yes, I think with the right mic, pads and gear you can record 140 dB SPL. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

March 2nd, 2008, 08:24 PM	#7
Martin Catt Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: The Colony TX Posts: 327	Another suggestion: monitor while recording with headphones. You'll hear real-time if the levels are too high and be able to correct live. You'll need a "real" pair of headphones, ones that fit over the ears (or maybe a set of earbuds that seal REAL well) so you can overcome the room sound and concentrate on the recorded sound levels. I bought a set of Sony MDR 7506 headphones on the strength of recommendations from the audio greybeards on this forum, and have never regretted it. Best $90 I ever spent for audio gear. The real issue is that one person can't really do audio and video at the same time, particularly in a live venue. Martin __________________ Canon XF300, Canon 5DMkII, Canon XL2, Rolls MX422 mixer, Zoom H4N, AT899 lavs, AT2020's, Azden SGM 1X shotgun, Manfrotto 501 head on 351 tripod

March 2nd, 2008, 05:39 PM	#2
Matt Gottshalk Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Potomac Falls, VA Posts: 215	Nothing you can do with that.

March 2nd, 2008, 06:19 PM	#4
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	you fed line level into the camera set a mic level. it will clip as you found out even if the levels seem ok. ALWAYS ask what you are being fed, and better to start at line level first on the camera side. if the levels are good at line, thats what you are getting. if you see nothing or very little, its mic level and change. don't worry, we've all made this beginner mistake, ONCE ! there's not much you can do to fix it either. there is supposed to be a VERY expensive plugin to protools that can declip, but I haven't found anyone around who has it. and FWIW, music can and often is too loud. My first indicator sound is too loud ? pain in my left ear. I mean real pain. hearing damage from excessive sound is VERY REAL. talk to anyone who was worked in the concert / music / event biz for 10 or more years and you'll get a very different opinion about "it can't be too loud". If I am shooting a show, I now always bring 30db cut ear plugs, and also provide them for crew. once you damage your hearing, it can not be fixed.

March 2nd, 2008, 08:30 PM	#8
Ty Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD USA Posts: 2,337	Good point on the headphones. I've recently switched from the Sony MDR 7506 to the new Audio-Technica ATH- M50. Regards, Ty Ford __________________ Ty Ford's Audio Bootcamp Field Guide Ty Ford's Audio Video Blog

March 2nd, 2008, 08:47 PM	#9
J.J. Kim Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Wheeling, IL Posts: 270	thank you so much for all the feedback.. i will do my best based on what everyone told me. i had apple earbud on which are pretty nice. but it was really loud, i mean really loud. bass was so strong that the footage was shaking. I have sony mdr-v300 which is pretty good. the show was shot by me as a fan, not being paid or anything, so it was hard for me to find someone who would do just audio. it would definitely helpful, though. thank you all. jj Last edited by J.J. Kim; March 2nd, 2008 at 09:38 PM.

March 2nd, 2008, 09:55 PM	#10
Wayne Brissette Major Player Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 383	On the headphones part... when doing live rock music, nearly all headphones don't work, you can't really hear anything worthwhile. The problem is they let in too much of the outside music, so then you play this game of trying to turn up your headphone output and then everything is just a mess... There are a couple of solutions. First try using earphones designed for loud music such as the Etymotic 4 series : http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er4.aspx Or you can go the route that Glen Trew put together in the Remote Audio HN-7506 headset: http://www.trewaudio.com/store/produ...cat=109&page=1 Either way, you're knocking out 40+ dB of outside noise and that's what you have to do to monitor in loud venues. Wayne __________________ Mics: KMR 82 i, NTG-1, MKH418S, MKH8040, SR77, QTC1, QTC40, SR30 Recorder: Zaxcom Deva 5.8 & MIX-12. Wireless: TRX900 stereo, Lectro 411

March 2nd, 2008, 10:10 PM	#11
Michael Foo Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Seal Beach, CA Posts: 41	In ear monitors There is also these, that are custom molded to your ears. However, they are quite pricey... http://www.ultimateears.com/_ultimat...escription.php

March 3rd, 2008, 02:27 PM	#12
Brooks Harrington Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 152	Nothing you can do about that sound... it's hopeless. Find some one that taped the concert and replace the sound.

March 3rd, 2008, 02:38 PM	#13
Jimmy Tuffrey Major Player Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Bristol U.K. Posts: 244	Wow !! what distortion pedal has that guitarist got ?

March 3rd, 2008, 03:39 PM	#14
Marco Leavitt Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Albany, NY 12210 Posts: 2,652	Man that stinks. I find a lot of the time the mixer doesn't even know the difference between mic and line level, let alone the difference between pro and consumer line level. They look at me like I have two heads when I ask. I usually assume it's line level, and if I find I'm not getting good levels with the gain cranked, try it at mic level. There's also the problem of distortion occuring further up the chain so even if you have everything matched it still sounds like crap.

March 3rd, 2008, 07:07 PM	#15
J.J. Kim Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Wheeling, IL Posts: 270	I kinda gave a sign to soundboard guy to turn down mine , and he gave me his thumb up. i guess he didn't mean "good to go" instead "i will bring it up as much as possible so that it screw you over" Tim Reynolds (the guitarist) has done mostly acoustic by himself, and it was the first time for me to film his new band that was created this year. I will what to do next time... i am also thinking about getting a new set of headphone also.dont' know which one yet since i'm kinda tight on budget. thank you all.. JJ