Sennheiser ME66 echo indoors w/PD150 at DVinfo.net

Mike Murray · May 25th, 2003, 06:44 PM

I have a Sony PD150 and Sennheiser ME66 w/K6 on a boom pole. Outdoors its perfect. However, indoors I seem to get a lot of ambient echo and a slight hiss to the recording. It seems to do this in ANY house I have been in. I have two ME66's and two PD150's and both have the same problem. Also, my ME64 seems to be even worse. Setting the PD150 to Mic ATT (-20 drop) helps tremendously but the recording level is way to low and adds hiss when gained up in post.

I've read many articles that state the ME66 is great indoors. Am I doing something wrong or would an ME62 be better indoors?

Peter Jefferson · May 26th, 2003, 10:55 AM

can u adjust the dynamic range on the mic itself?

most shotguns allow for a freq setting, for some reason its picking up the reverb of the room..

Mike Murray · May 26th, 2003, 02:08 PM

It has a switch with these two symbols on it.

___

and

---\

I assume the latter is a bass roll-off filter. But it is undocumented in the manual. Neither setting seemed to help much though.

Jacques Mersereau · May 27th, 2003, 08:50 AM

You don't notice the hiss so much outdoors because of all the ambient
noise that surrounds us, but when you go inside where it is quiet,
that hiss is easier to hear. Bottom line, there is hiss there indoors or
outdoors.

IMO, that hiss is the mic itself and not the
PD150. The K6 ME67/66 rig is pretty good, but if you go up the next
step of the price ladder to the 416/418, you'll find a noticeable improvement in
signal quality all the way around.

The bass roll off switch isn't going to help the signal to noise ratio of the ME66/k6,
but software with a noise reduction module can get rid of most of that annoying
hiss.

Bryan Beasleigh · May 27th, 2003, 08:54 AM

It is my understanding that a hypercardoid mic will tend to echo in a smaller enclosed area. It's not the mic but the application.

http://www.equipmentemporium.com/selectin.htm

there is some info here

So far as the hiss. Attenuating the input will only make matters worse.

Mike Murray · May 27th, 2003, 11:19 AM

So here is the question: We're about to start shooting a 30 minute short "film" with PD150's. Lot's of indoor and outdoor shooting. What's the recommended way to resolve the echo on the indoor scenes. I can hear them in the headphones too while taping. Is there a different mic for the K6 that would work better indoors?

Bryan Beasleigh · May 27th, 2003, 12:29 PM

I don't have that answer but I did post a link that I should answer your question. Ihe site that the PDF resides on has dozens of informative articles on audio.

Jacques Mersereau · May 27th, 2003, 12:47 PM

<<Lot's of indoor and outdoor shooting. What's the recommended way to resolve the echo on the indoor scenes. I can hear them in the headphones too while taping. Is there a different mic for the K6 that would work better indoors?>>

Ever wonder how the audio on almost all real tv shows sounds so good?
(You probably didn't know how good until you tried it yourself ehh?)
Huge fat vocals in your face, motorcycles who's sound seems to "fit" right
in, lip sync that isn't quite perfect?

The reason is because almost all audio is recorded either on a "sound stage"
or a studio voice over room.

Almost everything audio is replaced when they shoot an outdoor
or on location scene. The Audio Dialog Replacement grinder is
when the room, ambient noise or other issues wreck the audio from the actual
shot, meaning you have to go through the lengthy process of replacing
each line, usually an actor at a time, then building the ambient
sound structure and sound efx (foley) of the scene.
THIS IS DONE ALL THE TIME . . . like breathing.

So, there is no mic that is going to avoid recording the room and/or ambient
sound of a location. Usually, the worse the mic the better it will be of hearing
only what is right in front of and on top of it. So, especially when using good
mics in these conditions, you have to get them CLOSE to the source you
are recording. A lav mic hidden or shotgun just out of the picture
is how it is usually attempted. Also, to get great audio, you should be
ready to go back into the studio and replace stuff if you want great sound.

One thing you might want to do is make sure you record some
of the room or location in "silence" so that later in post using
cool audio software, which allows noise sampling and removal of that noise,
can be used. There are some solutions for echo cancellation, a fast noise
gate being one often used.

Mike Murray · May 27th, 2003, 02:15 PM

Exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you.

Matt Gettemeier · June 1st, 2003, 12:00 AM

Well kiddies... I see that you've already put this fire out, but I can't resist kicking around the ashes and tossing one last log on the embers...

I was just using my me66 indoors tonight, thinking ONCE AGAIN that I should be able to get the sound right with it. I'll tell ya'... I have NO idea how anybody gets good INDOOR sound with this mic... it is SO open sounding... if you get it down on your actor, or if you take the booming job VERY seriously and get the mic pointing at a steep down angle EXACTLY AT THE MOUTH but just out of frame... THEN you'll love this mic.

What I had to do tonight is what I've had to do EVERY other time I couldn't use the me66 as per the above suggestions... I used a tram... wired or wireless the tram (or similar) lav accomplishes everything you're asking for... if you can hide the mic it will give you the sound you want with just enough ambience to accompany the perfectly mic'ed actor (or two if they are within a few feet of the same mic... at worst you'll have to pull one of the actor's voice levels down or up... at best you may not need to do anything in post)... anyway, the trams mix great with shotgun and eliminate the headaches the me66 is giving you indoors...

I expect that most people get into audio the way I did... the shotgun mic is a sexy, tech item we can't wait to get... meanwhile the poor little lav is an underdog of good audio capture... many times when you think you have a difficult audio situation the lav is just the ticket.

May 25th, 2003, 06:44 PM	#1
Mike Murray New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Kennedale, TX Posts: 13	Sennheiser ME66 echo indoors w/PD150 I have a Sony PD150 and Sennheiser ME66 w/K6 on a boom pole. Outdoors its perfect. However, indoors I seem to get a lot of ambient echo and a slight hiss to the recording. It seems to do this in ANY house I have been in. I have two ME66's and two PD150's and both have the same problem. Also, my ME64 seems to be even worse. Setting the PD150 to Mic ATT (-20 drop) helps tremendously but the recording level is way to low and adds hiss when gained up in post. I've read many articles that state the ME66 is great indoors. Am I doing something wrong or would an ME62 be better indoors? __________________ - Mike M. Sony DSR-PD150

May 26th, 2003, 02:08 PM	#3
Mike Murray New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Kennedale, TX Posts: 13	It has a switch with these two symbols on it. ___ and ---\ I assume the latter is a bass roll-off filter. But it is undocumented in the manual. Neither setting seemed to help much though. __________________ - Mike M. Sony DSR-PD150

May 27th, 2003, 08:50 AM	#4
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	You don't notice the hiss so much outdoors because of all the ambient noise that surrounds us, but when you go inside where it is quiet, that hiss is easier to hear. Bottom line, there is hiss there indoors or outdoors. IMO, that hiss is the mic itself and not the PD150. The K6 ME67/66 rig is pretty good, but if you go up the next step of the price ladder to the 416/418, you'll find a noticeable improvement in signal quality all the way around. The bass roll off switch isn't going to help the signal to noise ratio of the ME66/k6, but software with a noise reduction module can get rid of most of that annoying hiss. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

May 27th, 2003, 11:19 AM	#6
Mike Murray New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Kennedale, TX Posts: 13	So here is the question: We're about to start shooting a 30 minute short "film" with PD150's. Lot's of indoor and outdoor shooting. What's the recommended way to resolve the echo on the indoor scenes. I can hear them in the headphones too while taping. Is there a different mic for the K6 that would work better indoors? __________________ - Mike M. Sony DSR-PD150

May 27th, 2003, 12:47 PM	#8
Jacques Mersereau Trustee Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 1,334	<<Lot's of indoor and outdoor shooting. What's the recommended way to resolve the echo on the indoor scenes. I can hear them in the headphones too while taping. Is there a different mic for the K6 that would work better indoors?>> Ever wonder how the audio on almost all real tv shows sounds so good? (You probably didn't know how good until you tried it yourself ehh?) Huge fat vocals in your face, motorcycles who's sound seems to "fit" right in, lip sync that isn't quite perfect? The reason is because almost all audio is recorded either on a "sound stage" or a studio voice over room. Almost everything audio is replaced when they shoot an outdoor or on location scene. The Audio Dialog Replacement grinder is when the room, ambient noise or other issues wreck the audio from the actual shot, meaning you have to go through the lengthy process of replacing each line, usually an actor at a time, then building the ambient sound structure and sound efx (foley) of the scene. THIS IS DONE ALL THE TIME . . . like breathing. So, there is no mic that is going to avoid recording the room and/or ambient sound of a location. Usually, the worse the mic the better it will be of hearing only what is right in front of and on top of it. So, especially when using good mics in these conditions, you have to get them CLOSE to the source you are recording. A lav mic hidden or shotgun just out of the picture is how it is usually attempted. Also, to get great audio, you should be ready to go back into the studio and replace stuff if you want great sound. One thing you might want to do is make sure you record some of the room or location in "silence" so that later in post using cool audio software, which allows noise sampling and removal of that noise, can be used. There are some solutions for echo cancellation, a fast noise gate being one often used. __________________ Jacques Mersereau University of Michigan-Video Studio Manager

May 26th, 2003, 10:55 AM	#2
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	can u adjust the dynamic range on the mic itself? most shotguns allow for a freq setting, for some reason its picking up the reverb of the room..

May 27th, 2003, 08:54 AM	#5
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	It is my understanding that a hypercardoid mic will tend to echo in a smaller enclosed area. It's not the mic but the application. http://www.equipmentemporium.com/selectin.htm there is some info here So far as the hiss. Attenuating the input will only make matters worse.

May 27th, 2003, 12:29 PM	#7
Bryan Beasleigh Trustee Join Date: May 2002 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,922	I don't have that answer but I did post a link that I should answer your question. Ihe site that the PDF resides on has dozens of informative articles on audio.

May 27th, 2003, 02:15 PM	#9
Mike Murray New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Kennedale, TX Posts: 13	Exactly the kind of response I was looking for. Thank you. __________________ - Mike M. Sony DSR-PD150

June 1st, 2003, 12:00 AM	#10
Matt Gettemeier Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: St. Louis, Missouri Posts: 936	Well kiddies... I see that you've already put this fire out, but I can't resist kicking around the ashes and tossing one last log on the embers... I was just using my me66 indoors tonight, thinking ONCE AGAIN that I should be able to get the sound right with it. I'll tell ya'... I have NO idea how anybody gets good INDOOR sound with this mic... it is SO open sounding... if you get it down on your actor, or if you take the booming job VERY seriously and get the mic pointing at a steep down angle EXACTLY AT THE MOUTH but just out of frame... THEN you'll love this mic. What I had to do tonight is what I've had to do EVERY other time I couldn't use the me66 as per the above suggestions... I used a tram... wired or wireless the tram (or similar) lav accomplishes everything you're asking for... if you can hide the mic it will give you the sound you want with just enough ambience to accompany the perfectly mic'ed actor (or two if they are within a few feet of the same mic... at worst you'll have to pull one of the actor's voice levels down or up... at best you may not need to do anything in post)... anyway, the trams mix great with shotgun and eliminate the headaches the me66 is giving you indoors... I expect that most people get into audio the way I did... the shotgun mic is a sexy, tech item we can't wait to get... meanwhile the poor little lav is an underdog of good audio capture... many times when you think you have a difficult audio situation the lav is just the ticket.