Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s at DVinfo.net

Steve Cocklin · April 14th, 2011, 10:57 AM

I’m trying to work out the math on using Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s in the Ki Pro mini. ProRes HQ is 220 Mb/s so wouldn’t the Extreme scan disk card running at 60MB/s or 480Mb/s be sufficient? I’ve been testing both cards and the Extreme 60MB/s Scan disk has shown no errors yet.

Thanks

Jon Thorn · April 14th, 2011, 01:14 PM

Steve C. - We have only qualified CF cards that meet our criteria for performance. A card must be able to encode 1080i 29.97 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and 8-channels of audio for the entire capacity of the card to be listed as qualified. It must also be able to perform reliable playback of the recorded footage. We did this stringent level of qualification so that a caveat-filled list of cards would not need to be something users had to puzzle over when selecting media. In addition to Hoodman and SanDisk, Delkin also has a CF card that has been qualified for use as of Monday. I expect the number of qualified cards to increase steadily as new CF card models become available.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Steve Cocklin · April 14th, 2011, 03:01 PM

Thanks Jon, I think I understand; I'm just looking at options, considering the PRO 64GB cards cost $500.00+ each. I shouldn't complain seeing as the price of a 64GB P2 card is much more but then again with 10 bit 4:2:2 out of my camera recording ProRes HQ @ 220Mb/s 64GB doesn’t go very far.
Cheers

Steve Kalle · April 23rd, 2011, 03:25 AM

FYI, 1080 24p has a target rate of only 176Mb/s and for normal scenes, it is actually 5-10% less. Only 720 60p and 1080 30p use 220Mb/s target rates.

Steve Cocklin · April 23rd, 2011, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Kalle

FYI, 1080 24p has a target rate of only 176Mb/s and for normal scenes, it is actually 5-10% less. Only 720 60p and 1080 30p use 220Mb/s target rates.

I've heard that maybe AJA might through a software upgrade add 1080 60i on the KiPro mini; this has only been hear-say I don't want to start any rumors!

Jon Thorn · April 23rd, 2011, 11:40 AM

Steve C. - Ki Pro Mini firmware version 2.5 adds support for 1080i 30 (aka 1080i 60). 1080i 29.97 has always been supported, but the less common 1080i 30 was added in addition to 720p 60 (720p 59.94 has always been supported). Ki Pro Mini firmware version 2.5 has been available for free download for about a week now. Version 2.5 also added support for LANC.

We demonstrated this firmware version at NAB. The 1080i 30 video source was the Panasonic GH2 Micro Four Thirds hybrid stills/video camera. It was connected to the Ki Pro Mini via HDMI. This is the only "DSLR-like" camera that we have found that produces an output free of on-screen display information or scaling/cropping issues. While I don't think it replaces a dedicated video camera by any means, it is certainly interesting and could be applicable for some situations.

We also demonstrated the LANC control via a LANC controller from Manfrotto combined with a Canon XL-H1s camera. LANC control is found on cameras from Sony and Canon. LANC controllers are available from a variety of manufacturers.

Hope this is helpful information,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Steve Cocklin · April 24th, 2011, 07:49 AM

Thanks Jon, 2.5 is installed, I’m still learning; I have the KiPro mini connected to a new PMW F3, new camera, and new recorder so I’m still trying to figure it all out. I edit on Avid MC5, last night I did a shoot where I ran the camera at 1080p 29.97, 1080p 23.98 and using the SQ function on the F3 slow motion 1080i 60/30 out of the camera into the Ki Pro mini. I knew from previous experience that the Slow Mo will only work with the Sony SxS cards although I did notice that the KiPro mini would switch over to 720 60 whenever I switch on the SQ switch. Where I was shooting also involved a lot of movement (tripod) where I would have to pick-up the tripod and move locations. On several occasions I noticed the Ki Pro mini powered off, I’m not sure if this might have been me accidently hitting a switch on the mini, or a connection with my power cable, I’m checking my cables today.
The footage came into Avid with no problems via AMA, it looks “stunning” but as I said I’m still learning the new system, and trying to develop a work flow between the two formats. What I would like to do is bring the XDCAM footage in, do the edit and then link the timeline to the ProRes files via AMA. I think the naming convention between the two files prevents me from doing that. If I bring the ProRes footage in transcode the scenes I want to use to a lower bit rate and edit I can re-link the timeline via AMA to the higher bit rate I shot in with no problem. I’m also hoping to improve the speed of my throughput when performing media management. As we already discussed http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/aja-io-k...-software.html I purchased the Syba card reader and now use it with my laptop to transfer files from the CF cards to my eSata hard drive. The reader has an eSata connection which does not work, so I’m stuck with the slower USB connection. Do you know of any other card reader that uses eSata or fire wire where it does not suppose the files on the card to be transferred are FAT32? Thanks again Jon.

Jon Thorn · April 24th, 2011, 02:45 PM

Steve C. - If you feel that there is any power related issue with your Ki Pro Mini, you can of course arrange an RMA of the unit or an Advanced Exchange of the unit. As you note, the issue could be with your battery or power cable; it's probably good to start with those items first. While AJA strives to build reliable equipment, we never rule out the possibility that some issue could occur with our equipment; it's part of why we provide a dedicated technical support department and an exchange service. Please contact AJA Technical Support if the issue does not seem to be with your battery or cable; they will be happy to replace the Ki Pro Mini if in fact the fault lies with the unit.

Regarding formats and frame rates, the Ki Pro Mini should record whatever format is sent to the device over the baseband SDI connection from the Sony PMW-F3 (or any other camera for that matter). An easy way to determine what the Ki Pro Mini is receiving as a signal is to simply enter the STATUS menu and see what incoming video format/frame rate is being reported. Ki Pro Mini auto-detects the format and frame rate.

With editorial storage capacity becoming relatively large at affordable price points (and also relatively fast in terms of bandwidth), most people don't feel the need for an "offline/online" codec scenario. The high quality, but manageable bandwidth of Apple ProRes 422 codecs make them particularly compelling. Most people tend to simply work with Apple ProRes 422 or Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) natively within the Avid via AMA. If you want to try another workflow, as you suggest, you certainly can as it's possible to transcode of course.

Regarding the CF card reader that you have, it is a SATA connection, not eSATA, so if you wanted you could likely bridge the SATA to eSATA with an appropriate adapter or enclosure as opposed to using the USB 2.0 connection. Such adapters are fairly inexpensive. Just a thought.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Steve Cocklin · August 14th, 2011, 02:44 PM

Hi Jon, I wanted to follow up on the SABA card reader, I managed to purchase a SATA to eSATA cable and attached it to my HP Elitebook. The reader still will not read the CF card in eSATA mode. Works fine with the USB cable but only at around 17 to 20MB/s. I have been looking at the Nexto DI system but it seems they are waiting on word from Apple for a ProRes firmware upgrade.

Jon Thorn · August 15th, 2011, 06:52 AM

Steve C. - I've used the Syba CF card reader connected via SATA to a host computer, but not via a SATA to eSATA connector. Perhaps the adapter cable is simply an issue in terms of power to the unit. If no lights are illuminated on the reader, that could be the issue.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Steve Cocklin · August 15th, 2011, 09:34 AM

Thanks for the reply Jon; I purchased a second Syba card reader thinking the first one must be bad. I’m reading the cards on my HP Laptop running Windows 7 64bit with MacDrive 8. USB 2.0 works great off of the Syba but I just can’t get the system to recognize the reader in eSATA mode using a SATA to eSATA cable and there are no lights on the reader when plugged into the computer using the SATA to eSATA cable. You mentioned you have had success with the reader in SATA mode, how do you have it hooked up to your system? Thanks again Jon, I have some USB 3.0 drives and two USB 3.0 ports on my laptop, If I could get more speed coming off those 64GB cards I could save some time on the media management end of the operation.

Jon Thorn · August 15th, 2011, 09:50 AM

Steve C. - If you don't see any light illuminated on the reader, I think that's indicative of it not receiving power. The way I had it connected via SATA to a host computer was through an internal SATA connection, not via eSATA. I suspect the adapter cable is the issue. You might be able to use the USB connection to power the reader and then select the SATA for data transfer if it's just a matter of power with respect to the SATA adpater cable (I haven't tried that and I'm out of the office, so I'm afraid I'm not able to look into it at the moment).

If you want help with this today, you could try working with AJA Technical Support while I'm out of the office.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Senior Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.

Steve Cocklin · August 15th, 2011, 10:03 AM

I just found out that I need to also power the card with the USB cable also plugged into the computer along with the SATA cable, When it is plugged in this way it reads the Syba card reader but looses the Mac formatted HFS+ CF card. So when I plug the SATA cable into the card; with it already plugged into the USB port it goes from showing up in my Hard Disk Drives window as a Mac disk to when I plug in the SATA cable it changes to a Removable disk G: I assume it is now looking for a FAT32 formatted card and not an HFS+ card.

April 14th, 2011, 10:57 AM	#1
Steve Cocklin Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Newburg, MD Posts: 45	Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s I’m trying to work out the math on using Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s in the Ki Pro mini. ProRes HQ is 220 Mb/s so wouldn’t the Extreme scan disk card running at 60MB/s or 480Mb/s be sufficient? I’ve been testing both cards and the Extreme 60MB/s Scan disk has shown no errors yet. Thanks

April 14th, 2011, 01:14 PM	#2
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Steve C. - We have only qualified CF cards that meet our criteria for performance. A card must be able to encode 1080i 29.97 Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) and 8-channels of audio for the entire capacity of the card to be listed as qualified. It must also be able to perform reliable playback of the recorded footage. We did this stringent level of qualification so that a caveat-filled list of cards would not need to be something users had to puzzle over when selecting media. In addition to Hoodman and SanDisk, Delkin also has a CF card that has been qualified for use as of Monday. I expect the number of qualified cards to increase steadily as new CF card models become available. Hope this is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

April 14th, 2011, 03:01 PM	#3
Steve Cocklin Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Newburg, MD Posts: 45	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Thanks Jon, I think I understand; I'm just looking at options, considering the PRO 64GB cards cost $500.00+ each. I shouldn't complain seeing as the price of a 64GB P2 card is much more but then again with 10 bit 4:2:2 out of my camera recording ProRes HQ @ 220Mb/s 64GB doesn’t go very far. Cheers

April 23rd, 2011, 03:25 AM	#4
Steve Kalle Trustee Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 1,554	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s FYI, 1080 24p has a target rate of only 176Mb/s and for normal scenes, it is actually 5-10% less. Only 720 60p and 1080 30p use 220Mb/s target rates.

April 23rd, 2011, 11:40 AM	#6
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Steve C. - Ki Pro Mini firmware version 2.5 adds support for 1080i 30 (aka 1080i 60). 1080i 29.97 has always been supported, but the less common 1080i 30 was added in addition to 720p 60 (720p 59.94 has always been supported). Ki Pro Mini firmware version 2.5 has been available for free download for about a week now. Version 2.5 also added support for LANC. We demonstrated this firmware version at NAB. The 1080i 30 video source was the Panasonic GH2 Micro Four Thirds hybrid stills/video camera. It was connected to the Ki Pro Mini via HDMI. This is the only "DSLR-like" camera that we have found that produces an output free of on-screen display information or scaling/cropping issues. While I don't think it replaces a dedicated video camera by any means, it is certainly interesting and could be applicable for some situations. We also demonstrated the LANC control via a LANC controller from Manfrotto combined with a Canon XL-H1s camera. LANC control is found on cameras from Sony and Canon. LANC controllers are available from a variety of manufacturers. Hope this is helpful information, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

April 24th, 2011, 07:49 AM	#7
Steve Cocklin Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Newburg, MD Posts: 45	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Thanks Jon, 2.5 is installed, I’m still learning; I have the KiPro mini connected to a new PMW F3, new camera, and new recorder so I’m still trying to figure it all out. I edit on Avid MC5, last night I did a shoot where I ran the camera at 1080p 29.97, 1080p 23.98 and using the SQ function on the F3 slow motion 1080i 60/30 out of the camera into the Ki Pro mini. I knew from previous experience that the Slow Mo will only work with the Sony SxS cards although I did notice that the KiPro mini would switch over to 720 60 whenever I switch on the SQ switch. Where I was shooting also involved a lot of movement (tripod) where I would have to pick-up the tripod and move locations. On several occasions I noticed the Ki Pro mini powered off, I’m not sure if this might have been me accidently hitting a switch on the mini, or a connection with my power cable, I’m checking my cables today. The footage came into Avid with no problems via AMA, it looks “stunning” but as I said I’m still learning the new system, and trying to develop a work flow between the two formats. What I would like to do is bring the XDCAM footage in, do the edit and then link the timeline to the ProRes files via AMA. I think the naming convention between the two files prevents me from doing that. If I bring the ProRes footage in transcode the scenes I want to use to a lower bit rate and edit I can re-link the timeline via AMA to the higher bit rate I shot in with no problem. I’m also hoping to improve the speed of my throughput when performing media management. As we already discussed http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/aja-io-k...-software.html I purchased the Syba card reader and now use it with my laptop to transfer files from the CF cards to my eSata hard drive. The reader has an eSata connection which does not work, so I’m stuck with the slower USB connection. Do you know of any other card reader that uses eSata or fire wire where it does not suppose the files on the card to be transferred are FAT32? Thanks again Jon.

April 24th, 2011, 02:45 PM	#8
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Steve C. - If you feel that there is any power related issue with your Ki Pro Mini, you can of course arrange an RMA of the unit or an Advanced Exchange of the unit. As you note, the issue could be with your battery or power cable; it's probably good to start with those items first. While AJA strives to build reliable equipment, we never rule out the possibility that some issue could occur with our equipment; it's part of why we provide a dedicated technical support department and an exchange service. Please contact AJA Technical Support if the issue does not seem to be with your battery or cable; they will be happy to replace the Ki Pro Mini if in fact the fault lies with the unit. Regarding formats and frame rates, the Ki Pro Mini should record whatever format is sent to the device over the baseband SDI connection from the Sony PMW-F3 (or any other camera for that matter). An easy way to determine what the Ki Pro Mini is receiving as a signal is to simply enter the STATUS menu and see what incoming video format/frame rate is being reported. Ki Pro Mini auto-detects the format and frame rate. With editorial storage capacity becoming relatively large at affordable price points (and also relatively fast in terms of bandwidth), most people don't feel the need for an "offline/online" codec scenario. The high quality, but manageable bandwidth of Apple ProRes 422 codecs make them particularly compelling. Most people tend to simply work with Apple ProRes 422 or Apple ProRes 422 (HQ) natively within the Avid via AMA. If you want to try another workflow, as you suggest, you certainly can as it's possible to transcode of course. Regarding the CF card reader that you have, it is a SATA connection, not eSATA, so if you wanted you could likely bridge the SATA to eSATA with an appropriate adapter or enclosure as opposed to using the USB 2.0 connection. Such adapters are fairly inexpensive. Just a thought. Hope this is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

August 14th, 2011, 02:44 PM	#9
Steve Cocklin Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Newburg, MD Posts: 45	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Hi Jon, I wanted to follow up on the SABA card reader, I managed to purchase a SATA to eSATA cable and attached it to my HP Elitebook. The reader still will not read the CF card in eSATA mode. Works fine with the USB cable but only at around 17 to 20MB/s. I have been looking at the Nexto DI system but it seems they are waiting on word from Apple for a ProRes firmware upgrade. Attached Thumbnails

August 15th, 2011, 06:52 AM	#10
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Steve C. - I've used the Syba CF card reader connected via SATA to a host computer, but not via a SATA to eSATA connector. Perhaps the adapter cable is simply an issue in terms of power to the unit. If no lights are illuminated on the reader, that could be the issue. Hope this is helpful, Jon Thorn Senior Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

August 15th, 2011, 09:34 AM	#11
Steve Cocklin Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Newburg, MD Posts: 45	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Thanks for the reply Jon; I purchased a second Syba card reader thinking the first one must be bad. I’m reading the cards on my HP Laptop running Windows 7 64bit with MacDrive 8. USB 2.0 works great off of the Syba but I just can’t get the system to recognize the reader in eSATA mode using a SATA to eSATA cable and there are no lights on the reader when plugged into the computer using the SATA to eSATA cable. You mentioned you have had success with the reader in SATA mode, how do you have it hooked up to your system? Thanks again Jon, I have some USB 3.0 drives and two USB 3.0 ports on my laptop, If I could get more speed coming off those 64GB cards I could save some time on the media management end of the operation.

August 15th, 2011, 09:50 AM	#12
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s Steve C. - If you don't see any light illuminated on the reader, I think that's indicative of it not receiving power. The way I had it connected via SATA to a host computer was through an internal SATA connection, not via eSATA. I suspect the adapter cable is the issue. You might be able to use the USB connection to power the reader and then select the SATA for data transfer if it's just a matter of power with respect to the SATA adpater cable (I haven't tried that and I'm out of the office, so I'm afraid I'm not able to look into it at the moment). If you want help with this today, you could try working with AJA Technical Support while I'm out of the office. Hope this is helpful, Jon Thorn Senior Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc.

August 15th, 2011, 10:03 AM	#13
Steve Cocklin Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Newburg, MD Posts: 45	Re: Extreme Pro 90MB/s vs Extreme 60MB/s I just found out that I need to also power the card with the USB cable also plugged into the computer along with the SATA cable, When it is plugged in this way it reads the Syba card reader but looses the Mac formatted HFS+ CF card. So when I plug the SATA cable into the card; with it already plugged into the USB port it goes from showing up in my Hard Disk Drives window as a Mac disk to when I plug in the SATA cable it changes to a Removable disk G: I assume it is now looking for a FAT32 formatted card and not an HFS+ card.