Ki Pro and Canon H1 Genlock? at DVinfo.net

Norman Lang · September 6th, 2010, 04:05 PM

I was able to send timecode to the Ki Pro from the Canon XL H1 and genlock the two. The tape in the camera and the files on the Ki Pro hard drive were synched to the same timecode. When I layered both clips in the timeline in Final Cut Pro, I was able to see audio and video timecode for the H1 and the Ki Pro in the canvas window. It was easy to match up the timecodes. And that would be a good ending, except that when I put the playhead on a frame and revealed the matching layer beneath, it did not match. Not exactly. It was off by one frame. Why is that? It was an easy fix. I just nudged back the Ki Pro clip one frame. Then the match was exact. Success! But, no, the audio was still off just a little. I had to unlink the audio from the Ki Pro clip and move it back two frames. Then there was harmony in the universe. My question is, what did I likely do wrong? Or, is there an offset that can be used to adjust for it?

Norman

Tim Kolb · September 7th, 2010, 01:20 AM

How are you feeding the KiPro?

HDSDI?

Analog Component?

The KiPro should be taking TC from the incoming embedded signal if you set it up to do so...

Why would you need the camera files on the timeline? ...or are you simply looking at this for curi.osity?

Norman Lang · September 7th, 2010, 05:40 AM

Hey Tim. I am feeding the Ki Pro with HDSDI for video, Genlock from the H1 to the Y input on the Ki Pro and TC out from the H1 to TCL in on the Ki Pro. Audio is coming in directly from a mic to the XLR inputs on the Ki Pro. Audio is also being recorded to tape from the on-board mic on the camera.
As for why? Yes at first I was curious, but if I could get it to work easily, it could be a good way to back up the Ki Pro if for example if the audio on one source was faulty.
My other bright idea was to genlock the Ki Pro from the H1 and feed the Ki Pro Component video from my Canon XH A1. That would allow the A1 recorded video on the Ki Pro to have matching timecode with the H1. I have not attempted that yet.
Norman

Jon Thorn · September 7th, 2010, 09:40 AM

Norman L. - The analog audio out of the Canon XL-H1 and the SDI video output from the camera may not be synchronized. The later model Canon XL-H1s camera has audio/video and timecode via SDI connection; all of which should be in sync. Since you have the earlier Canon XL-H1 model, you might want to run a quick test with the analog audio output and the component analog video output of the Canon XL-H1 (connected to Ki Pro via the special component cable and RCA to BNC adapters) as opposed to the analog audio and SDI to see if the analog audio/video output produces better a/v sync when recorded with the Ki Pro.

Be default, Ki Pro will lock to the input video source for recordings; the genlock parameter that you see on the Ki Pro is for playback purposes.

Hope this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Norman Lang · September 7th, 2010, 10:27 AM

Jon - Very interesting. I have been recording from my XH A1 to the Ki Pro that way (analog :component video/rca audio), both live and via playback from tape. It works great. I have not noticed any synch issues there.

BTW- I was taking video to the Ki Pro via HDSDI but the audio was direct to the XLR connectors on the Ki Pro from a Shure VP88 Mic with phantom power (supplied by the Ki Pro). If both the audio and the video are recorded simultaneously on the Ki Pro shouldn't they be in synch?

It was only when I matched the hdv tape audio and video and the Ki Pro audio and video file on the timeline that I noticed there was a 3 frame lag in the audio on the Ki Pro file. The frame difference in the match of the Ki Pro and the H1 video was only of by one frame though.

Thanks for you help. I have been very impressed with the images and the ease of editing using native prores files. Beyond the basics however there are many possibilities to explore. And it is an iterative process. Fun. But there is a lot to learn.

Jon Thorn · September 7th, 2010, 01:43 PM

Norman L. - Glad to hear that using analog audio and video sorts out the issue you saw when compared to using analog audio and SDI. If you see delay between the SDI output from the camera and other analog audio sources, like your microphone that are directly fed to the Ki Pro, it may be that there is simply a delay in the SDI output from the XL-H1 in a general sense. Canon did improve the camera's outputs (in terms of audio/video/timecode output) when they moved to the XL-H1s version.

Glad you find the image quality and workflow provided by Ki Pro to your liking; comments like this make being in product development enjoyable!

Good luck with the learning process. If there is anything AJA related you are interested in learning, don't hesitate to visit the AJA website for training videos and documentation or feel free to call and speak to someone at AJA directly if you need additional assistance with the product.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Norman Lang · September 7th, 2010, 09:58 PM

Thanks Jon for the enlightenment. Let's face it unless you have a good story to tell, all the technology in the world is not going to make your film an award winner. If you go on to sites like Vimeo, you see that there are many talented producers out there really putting out some amazing work. It is folks like you who help these guys get to the next level and produce quality they could only dream about. The Ki Pro is right in that sweet spot for filmmakers that have the inspiration to make professional films, but not the zillion dollar budget to do it. Don't get me wrong, all the components can run into money, but it is no longer a dream to get it done.

Out here in Boston I see your guy Jay I. at the Final Cut Users Group who has been a great help with some of my Kona questions. I look forward to the future of the industry and the new offerings of AJA. It seems you have a good read on the higher end professional market as well as the aspiring independent professional producer market.

Back to the Ki Pro for a moment... Since I got it, whether I recorded the file "live" or on tape, or another device, everything goes through the Ki Pro. I no longer capture anything to the Mac using firewire. Every thing comes into the computer as nice high quality Prores 422 files ready to edit. And when it comes time to export and create delivery product, i.e. DVD, Bluray or web files, I first play the file into the Ki Pro to have a nice safe pristine 10 bit Prores copy of my work to archive. That is so big.

The next time I get a Canon tech on the phone, I will ask him about the SDI/audio synch issue. I am sure it will not be the first time he has heard about it. In the mean time the work around is pretty simple. I will just unlink the audio and video on the timeline and adjust 3 frames. There may also be an offset control on the Canon that I don't know about.

Thanks for your help. I will buy you a Harpoon Ale if you ever make it up to the Boston area!

Norman

Norman Lang · September 8th, 2010, 12:17 PM

I did speak to Canon and they informed me that there is a setting in AUDIO SETUP: AUD.M.SET. That should be set to LINE OUT. (page 67 of the XL H1 user manual)

This should allow the audio signal to synchronize with the video signal by adding an equal amount of delay to the audio.

This would mean connecting the stereo mic xlr connections to the camera and coming out the RCA line out to the RCA line in on the Ki Pro.

I haven't tried it yet, but it is at least validation of Jon's point that there may be a delay in the video out of the SDI port. I would be interested to know if anyone has run into this issue.

Norman Lang · September 8th, 2010, 04:15 PM

It worked. The audio is now perfectly synched from the H1 to the Ki Pro using the above procedure. Thanks for your help Tim and Jon.

The only nagging thing now is that the files from the H1 and the Ki Pro are still off by one single frame when I place them one layer below the other and match the timecodes. Why is that? One frame. No big deal. But it bugs me.

As for the audio, this a big deal. Who knew that the audio would be off by so much by connecting the mic directly to the Ki Pro. With this configuration you will truly have an ideal set up for recording Prores 422 directly from the SDI and Line out of the XL H1. Hopefully those of you that run into this issue will find a resolution here that will make you happy. It did for me.

Jon Thorn · September 8th, 2010, 11:52 PM

Norman L. - Glad to hear there was a menu that provided an adjustment for the analog audio output on the Canon XL-H1. However, I'm not sure why you see a difference of one frame with the regards to the timecode on the HDV tape when compared to the Ki Pro ProRes file. At AJA we test both SDI embedded timecode and LTC timecode input to Ki Pro against timecode window burn sources and have not seen a difference between the two.

Regards,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Norman Lang · September 9th, 2010, 05:56 AM

Well yes, Jon that is the mystery. I have the TC out from the Canon H1 into the TC in on the Ki Pro Set to free run. This time I took component video into the Ki Pro from another camera and Taped to the H1. The codes ran as I taped, seemingly in synch, but on the timeline I still had one frame difference between the two timecodes.

September 6th, 2010, 04:05 PM	#1
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	Ki Pro and Canon H1 Genlock? I was able to send timecode to the Ki Pro from the Canon XL H1 and genlock the two. The tape in the camera and the files on the Ki Pro hard drive were synched to the same timecode. When I layered both clips in the timeline in Final Cut Pro, I was able to see audio and video timecode for the H1 and the Ki Pro in the canvas window. It was easy to match up the timecodes. And that would be a good ending, except that when I put the playhead on a frame and revealed the matching layer beneath, it did not match. Not exactly. It was off by one frame. Why is that? It was an easy fix. I just nudged back the Ki Pro clip one frame. Then the match was exact. Success! But, no, the audio was still off just a little. I had to unlink the audio from the Ki Pro clip and move it back two frames. Then there was harmony in the universe. My question is, what did I likely do wrong? Or, is there an offset that can be used to adjust for it? Norman

September 7th, 2010, 01:20 AM	#2
Tim Kolb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Neenah, WI Posts: 547	How are you feeding the KiPro? HDSDI? Analog Component? The KiPro should be taking TC from the incoming embedded signal if you set it up to do so... Why would you need the camera files on the timeline? ...or are you simply looking at this for curi.osity? __________________ TimK Kolb Productions

September 7th, 2010, 05:40 AM	#3
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	Ki Pro and Canon H1 Genlock? Hey Tim. I am feeding the Ki Pro with HDSDI for video, Genlock from the H1 to the Y input on the Ki Pro and TC out from the H1 to TCL in on the Ki Pro. Audio is coming in directly from a mic to the XLR inputs on the Ki Pro. Audio is also being recorded to tape from the on-board mic on the camera. As for why? Yes at first I was curious, but if I could get it to work easily, it could be a good way to back up the Ki Pro if for example if the audio on one source was faulty. My other bright idea was to genlock the Ki Pro from the H1 and feed the Ki Pro Component video from my Canon XH A1. That would allow the A1 recorded video on the Ki Pro to have matching timecode with the H1. I have not attempted that yet. Norman

September 7th, 2010, 10:27 AM	#5
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	Audio and video sych Jon - Very interesting. I have been recording from my XH A1 to the Ki Pro that way (analog :component video/rca audio), both live and via playback from tape. It works great. I have not noticed any synch issues there. BTW- I was taking video to the Ki Pro via HDSDI but the audio was direct to the XLR connectors on the Ki Pro from a Shure VP88 Mic with phantom power (supplied by the Ki Pro). If both the audio and the video are recorded simultaneously on the Ki Pro shouldn't they be in synch? It was only when I matched the hdv tape audio and video and the Ki Pro audio and video file on the timeline that I noticed there was a 3 frame lag in the audio on the Ki Pro file. The frame difference in the match of the Ki Pro and the H1 video was only of by one frame though. Thanks for you help. I have been very impressed with the images and the ease of editing using native prores files. Beyond the basics however there are many possibilities to explore. And it is an iterative process. Fun. But there is a lot to learn.

September 8th, 2010, 12:17 PM	#8
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	H1 Video Audio delay I did speak to Canon and they informed me that there is a setting in AUDIO SETUP: AUD.M.SET. That should be set to LINE OUT. (page 67 of the XL H1 user manual) This should allow the audio signal to synchronize with the video signal by adding an equal amount of delay to the audio. This would mean connecting the stereo mic xlr connections to the camera and coming out the RCA line out to the RCA line in on the Ki Pro. I haven't tried it yet, but it is at least validation of Jon's point that there may be a delay in the video out of the SDI port. I would be interested to know if anyone has run into this issue.

September 7th, 2010, 09:40 AM	#4
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Norman L. - The analog audio out of the Canon XL-H1 and the SDI video output from the camera may not be synchronized. The later model Canon XL-H1s camera has audio/video and timecode via SDI connection; all of which should be in sync. Since you have the earlier Canon XL-H1 model, you might want to run a quick test with the analog audio output and the component analog video output of the Canon XL-H1 (connected to Ki Pro via the special component cable and RCA to BNC adapters) as opposed to the analog audio and SDI to see if the analog audio/video output produces better a/v sync when recorded with the Ki Pro. Be default, Ki Pro will lock to the input video source for recordings; the genlock parameter that you see on the Ki Pro is for playback purposes. Hope this information is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

September 7th, 2010, 01:43 PM	#6
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Norman L. - Glad to hear that using analog audio and video sorts out the issue you saw when compared to using analog audio and SDI. If you see delay between the SDI output from the camera and other analog audio sources, like your microphone that are directly fed to the Ki Pro, it may be that there is simply a delay in the SDI output from the XL-H1 in a general sense. Canon did improve the camera's outputs (in terms of audio/video/timecode output) when they moved to the XL-H1s version. Glad you find the image quality and workflow provided by Ki Pro to your liking; comments like this make being in product development enjoyable! Good luck with the learning process. If there is anything AJA related you are interested in learning, don't hesitate to visit the AJA website for training videos and documentation or feel free to call and speak to someone at AJA directly if you need additional assistance with the product. Regards, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

September 7th, 2010, 09:58 PM	#7
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	Thanks Jon for the enlightenment. Let's face it unless you have a good story to tell, all the technology in the world is not going to make your film an award winner. If you go on to sites like Vimeo, you see that there are many talented producers out there really putting out some amazing work. It is folks like you who help these guys get to the next level and produce quality they could only dream about. The Ki Pro is right in that sweet spot for filmmakers that have the inspiration to make professional films, but not the zillion dollar budget to do it. Don't get me wrong, all the components can run into money, but it is no longer a dream to get it done. Out here in Boston I see your guy Jay I. at the Final Cut Users Group who has been a great help with some of my Kona questions. I look forward to the future of the industry and the new offerings of AJA. It seems you have a good read on the higher end professional market as well as the aspiring independent professional producer market. Back to the Ki Pro for a moment... Since I got it, whether I recorded the file "live" or on tape, or another device, everything goes through the Ki Pro. I no longer capture anything to the Mac using firewire. Every thing comes into the computer as nice high quality Prores 422 files ready to edit. And when it comes time to export and create delivery product, i.e. DVD, Bluray or web files, I first play the file into the Ki Pro to have a nice safe pristine 10 bit Prores copy of my work to archive. That is so big. The next time I get a Canon tech on the phone, I will ask him about the SDI/audio synch issue. I am sure it will not be the first time he has heard about it. In the mean time the work around is pretty simple. I will just unlink the audio and video on the timeline and adjust 3 frames. There may also be an offset control on the Canon that I don't know about. Thanks for your help. I will buy you a Harpoon Ale if you ever make it up to the Boston area! Norman

September 8th, 2010, 04:15 PM	#9
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	Success! It worked. It worked. The audio is now perfectly synched from the H1 to the Ki Pro using the above procedure. Thanks for your help Tim and Jon. The only nagging thing now is that the files from the H1 and the Ki Pro are still off by one single frame when I place them one layer below the other and match the timecodes. Why is that? One frame. No big deal. But it bugs me. As for the audio, this a big deal. Who knew that the audio would be off by so much by connecting the mic directly to the Ki Pro. With this configuration you will truly have an ideal set up for recording Prores 422 directly from the SDI and Line out of the XL H1. Hopefully those of you that run into this issue will find a resolution here that will make you happy. It did for me.

September 8th, 2010, 11:52 PM	#10
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Norman L. - Glad to hear there was a menu that provided an adjustment for the analog audio output on the Canon XL-H1. However, I'm not sure why you see a difference of one frame with the regards to the timecode on the HDV tape when compared to the Ki Pro ProRes file. At AJA we test both SDI embedded timecode and LTC timecode input to Ki Pro against timecode window burn sources and have not seen a difference between the two. Regards, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

September 9th, 2010, 05:56 AM	#11
Norman Lang Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 29	New test same result Well yes, Jon that is the mystery. I have the TC out from the Canon H1 into the TC in on the Ki Pro Set to free run. This time I took component video into the Ki Pro from another camera and Taped to the H1. The codes ran as I taped, seemingly in synch, but on the timeline I still had one frame difference between the two timecodes.