no 24p at DVinfo.net

Eric Emerick · November 2nd, 2009, 03:29 PM

I can't seem to get 24p out from the Ki Pro. I am using a Sony PDW-350 going out via hdsdi. While the camera is set to 24p, the Ki Pro indicates only 29.97. I did set the Ki Pro for PsF recording as well. Any thoughts on how I screwed up?

Jon Thorn · November 2nd, 2009, 03:52 PM

Eric E. - According to the manual for the Sony PDW-F350, the camera, though it can record 1080P 23.98, does not output video at 1080PsF 23.98.

You can refer to the PDF manual from this link:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...0_350_V156.pdf

From chapter 1, page 26 of the manual, regarding HD-SDI output:
"Even when you are recording or playing back HD 23.98P signals, 23.98PsF signals are not output from this connector. The output is 59.94i signals after 2-3 pulldown."

This would explain why the AJA Ki Pro is detecting 1080i 29.97 (59.94i). If the camera output 1080PsF 23.98, Ki Pro would accept that as an input.

Hope this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Eric Emerick · November 2nd, 2009, 06:06 PM

Yeah, right after I hit the "send" button on my query, that thought swam by my head. I looked it up as well. Son of a gun. Thanks for the get back.

Les Caudle · December 19th, 2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

This would explain why the AJA Ki Pro is detecting 1080i 29.97 (59.94i). If the camera output 1080PsF 23.98, Ki Pro would accept that as an input.

Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Jon - in case I'm missing something, I've got a lowly HV20 which outputs 24p inside of a 1080i 60i (I'm probably mangling my terms?)

Will the Ki Pro record this as 24p ProRes HQ - and if not, can I run the normal reverse telecine Compressor settings (like I do when recording with a Black Magic Intensity Pro) to get 24p from whatever it does create?

Also, as the HDMI from the HV20/30 is v1.2, I'd get 8 bit of usable data inside of a 10 bit ProRes file, right? How exactly is that accomplished? Are the 2 least significant bits set to 0?

And - slightly off topic, are there recommended battery modules for use with the Ki-Pro?

Jon Thorn · December 21st, 2009, 01:25 PM

Les C. - The Canon HV20 will output 1080i 29.97fps (1080i 59.94) from the HDMI, but not 1080p24. We use the Canon HV30 for testing and demos with very good success; it can produce a very nice recording when paired with Ki Pro. Surprisingly good in fact. The 24p that the device can record is native to the HDV recording, but not to the output and thus why we would not be able to record that frame rate using Ki Pro.

As you suggest, you could try recording it as 1080i 29.97 and then try to perform a "reverse telecine" on it via Compressor, but there is no guarantee that the process will give you the correct frame cadence. I can't promise that would work and meet your expectations, so be forewarned.

The reason AJA does not extract 23.98 fps from within 29.97 fps HDMI signals is because there is no data for us to work with to verify the correct frames are being removed. With HD-SDI signals, there is ancillary data that can be detected and the correct frames can be removed based on this data. This feature will be available soon for the HD-SDI input on Ki Pro when working with 720p material and then later with 1080i material.

You are correct; most HDMI devices that have been manufactured (until fairly recently) have not supported 10-bit output. So the HDMI output at 8-bit from the camcorders will be recorded as 10-bit with least significant bits padded out. This still is an advantage for two reasons: first, you are taking the uncompressed HDMI signal and recording that prior to the HDV compression and secondly, you obtain a full raster, 10-bit 4:2:2 file for post-production, where tasks like color correction may be better served by this type of material.

Regarding your other question, we have tested Ki Pro with a variety of batteries. I personally find the Anton Bauer Dionic 90 batteries to be a good choice for their capacity vs. their weight.

Hope this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Les Caudle · December 21st, 2009, 01:40 PM

Jon -

1. would it be reasonable to assume that the Ki Pro would record an HV20 the same way as an Intensity Pro (forgetting that the Intensity is 8 bit only for recording).

I end up with a 60i ProRes HQ 422 file, and then I use compressor to reverse telecine it.

They would both be recording the same thing, so I'm unsure if there would be any concern that it would be different - but, you're the expert - and I certainly don't want to miss something

2. For the Scarlet (which I'm hoping will be my next camera, rather a big jump up), I could record with the Ki Pro in full 10 bit ProRes HQ 422, right (forgetting that I'd be tossing the full 3K output of the Scarlet). I know the Scarlet will have an HDMI option. I'm not really familiar with SDI. Would there be an advantage to going that way?

Thanks!

Jon Thorn · December 22nd, 2009, 02:23 PM

Les C. - Again, I can't promise that the cadence will be correct if you capture at 1080i 29.97 via HDMI and then use Compressor to produce 1080p 23.98. Maybe. I would test it before you assume!

With regards to Scarlet, since it's not a released product, can't say for sure... HD-SDI tends to be the better connection choice since it can provide video, audio and timecode while HDMI - as currently specified - only supports video and audio, but not timecode. You also get the added physical benefit of a locking connector via BNC with SDI when compared to HDMI's connector.

Hope this is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

November 2nd, 2009, 03:29 PM	#1
Eric Emerick Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 171	no 24p I can't seem to get 24p out from the Ki Pro. I am using a Sony PDW-350 going out via hdsdi. While the camera is set to 24p, the Ki Pro indicates only 29.97. I did set the Ki Pro for PsF recording as well. Any thoughts on how I screwed up? __________________ esquared

November 2nd, 2009, 03:52 PM	#2
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Camera does not seem to output 23.98PsF Eric E. - According to the manual for the Sony PDW-F350, the camera, though it can record 1080P 23.98, does not output video at 1080PsF 23.98. You can refer to the PDF manual from this link: http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/f...0_350_V156.pdf From chapter 1, page 26 of the manual, regarding HD-SDI output: "Even when you are recording or playing back HD 23.98P signals, 23.98PsF signals are not output from this connector. The output is 59.94i signals after 2-3 pulldown." This would explain why the AJA Ki Pro is detecting 1080i 29.97 (59.94i). If the camera output 1080PsF 23.98, Ki Pro would accept that as an input. Hope this information is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

November 2nd, 2009, 06:06 PM	#3
Eric Emerick Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Melbourne, FL Posts: 171	Yeah, right after I hit the "send" button on my query, that thought swam by my head. I looked it up as well. Son of a gun. Thanks for the get back. __________________ esquared

December 21st, 2009, 01:25 PM	#5
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Les C. - The Canon HV20 will output 1080i 29.97fps (1080i 59.94) from the HDMI, but not 1080p24. We use the Canon HV30 for testing and demos with very good success; it can produce a very nice recording when paired with Ki Pro. Surprisingly good in fact. The 24p that the device can record is native to the HDV recording, but not to the output and thus why we would not be able to record that frame rate using Ki Pro. As you suggest, you could try recording it as 1080i 29.97 and then try to perform a "reverse telecine" on it via Compressor, but there is no guarantee that the process will give you the correct frame cadence. I can't promise that would work and meet your expectations, so be forewarned. The reason AJA does not extract 23.98 fps from within 29.97 fps HDMI signals is because there is no data for us to work with to verify the correct frames are being removed. With HD-SDI signals, there is ancillary data that can be detected and the correct frames can be removed based on this data. This feature will be available soon for the HD-SDI input on Ki Pro when working with 720p material and then later with 1080i material. You are correct; most HDMI devices that have been manufactured (until fairly recently) have not supported 10-bit output. So the HDMI output at 8-bit from the camcorders will be recorded as 10-bit with least significant bits padded out. This still is an advantage for two reasons: first, you are taking the uncompressed HDMI signal and recording that prior to the HDV compression and secondly, you obtain a full raster, 10-bit 4:2:2 file for post-production, where tasks like color correction may be better served by this type of material. Regarding your other question, we have tested Ki Pro with a variety of batteries. I personally find the Anton Bauer Dionic 90 batteries to be a good choice for their capacity vs. their weight. Hope this information is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

December 21st, 2009, 01:40 PM	#6
Les Caudle Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 45	Jon - 1. would it be reasonable to assume that the Ki Pro would record an HV20 the same way as an Intensity Pro (forgetting that the Intensity is 8 bit only for recording). I end up with a 60i ProRes HQ 422 file, and then I use compressor to reverse telecine it. They would both be recording the same thing, so I'm unsure if there would be any concern that it would be different - but, you're the expert - and I certainly don't want to miss something 2. For the Scarlet (which I'm hoping will be my next camera, rather a big jump up), I could record with the Ki Pro in full 10 bit ProRes HQ 422, right (forgetting that I'd be tossing the full 3K output of the Scarlet). I know the Scarlet will have an HDMI option. I'm not really familiar with SDI. Would there be an advantage to going that way? Thanks!

December 22nd, 2009, 02:23 PM	#7
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Les C. - Again, I can't promise that the cadence will be correct if you capture at 1080i 29.97 via HDMI and then use Compressor to produce 1080p 23.98. Maybe. I would test it before you assume! With regards to Scarlet, since it's not a released product, can't say for sure... HD-SDI tends to be the better connection choice since it can provide video, audio and timecode while HDMI - as currently specified - only supports video and audio, but not timecode. You also get the added physical benefit of a locking connector via BNC with SDI when compared to HDMI's connector. Hope this is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California