AJA Ki Pro

Harrison Murchison · June 23rd, 2009, 07:54 PM

Count me in as someone that would like to see Firewire 3200 become the next connection standard. My reasons.

1. 400 Megabyte per second transfer
2. Same cables and circuitry as FW800
3. Powered ports
4. Peer to peer architecture

My only beef with SATA is that we now need to wait for the second revision to get above 300 MBps data and it's a hosted architecture like USB in that I have to have a computer in the chain.

I think we're stuck in the middle right now with aging external connectivity (USB 2.0 and FW800 and eSATA) that are rapidly being outstripped by SSD.

Barry J. Anwender · June 23rd, 2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harrison Murchison

I think we're stuck in the middle right now with aging external connectivity (USB 2.0 and FW800 and eSATA) that are rapidly being outstripped by SSD.

Agreed, and surprisingly SSD's use the SATA-2 port standard :-) Cheers!

Jon Thorn · June 24th, 2009, 03:15 PM

Lonnie B. - Yes, you can certainly use camcorders with component analog HD outputs. These will work fine and produce excellent results. The main reason I listed the particular cameras I did is because they shared similar features at similar price points. Also note that you can run HD-SDI signals greater distances than a component signal, however this isn't much of an issue if all you are doing is connecting your camera's output to the Ki Pro. The SDI connection is really just an "ease of use" proposition when connecting to Ki Pro since it could carry the audio and video signals via one cable.

Barry A. - I would still say that our disk pricing is pretty realistic - even for the SSD units - when compared with other camera based solid state recording media like P2 or SxS. As for do-it-yourself solutions... we don't want to offer "empty storage modules" that users can fill, because, again to reiterate this point, we don't want people to try to use possibly inadequate disks to populate the cases and then have problems. Simple as that.

As for your second question, the storage module features a FireWire 800 port as well as the SATA connector. The FireWire 800 connector allows the media to be connected to a wide variety of computers easily and this one cable can provide the data connection as well as the power. While we aren't offering any SATA connection for the drive to the computer at the outset, we won't rule out the possibility that a cable or adapter will be offered at a later date to take advantage of the speed inherent to this type of connection.

Harrison M. - You bring up some good points... not all SSDs are priced the same, and often for good reason; they don't all share the same performance characteristics (and performance characteristics aren't always about the manufacturer's stated benchmark numbers...) To use your language, we aren't trying to "soak anyone" for the cost of the storage. If we were, EVERYTHING about Ki Pro would be much, much more expensive!

Thanks for your questions! Sorry if my reply to some of them is a bit tardy.

Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Andreas Serafini · June 24th, 2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

Lonnie B. - Yes, you can certainly use camcorders with component analog HD outputs. These will work fine and produce excellent results. The main reason I listed the particular cameras I did is because they shared similar features at similar price points. Also note that you can run HD-SDI signals greater distances than a component signal, however this isn't much of an issue if all you are doing is connecting your camera's output to the Ki Pro. The SDI connection is really just an "ease of use" proposition when connecting to Ki Pro since it could carry the audio and video signals via one cable.

Hi Jon

if I understand correctly there is practically no difference in using the Canon XH A1 with analog hd out or the XH G1 with hd-sdi, besides shorter length of the cables and audio and video on two different cables. No difference in the image quality. So if I wanted to use the Ki pro mounted on the tripod under the camera, there would be no point in spending twice as much to get a G1.

Emmanuel Plakiotis · June 24th, 2009, 04:47 PM

The form of the KiPro resembles the old field recorder from Sony (it came in all format flavors BETAcam/Dvcam/HDcam), thus making it suitable for all situations where a videoman is needed. On the other hand is not very practical for steadicam or small crews and I believe that the tripod cage is not an ideal solutions because of weight, size and balancing issues. This could be addressed if the expresscard unit was detachable in order to function as an on camera recorder (much like JVC's KA-MR100G SxS memory card recorder).
Otherwise, with an SSD drive, the expresscard option is pointless in my opinion.

Andrew Stone · June 25th, 2009, 10:01 AM

Jon,

I have a two questions. One weight related and the other about conversion.

Could you let us know the weight of the individual components: the Ki Pro itself with a hard drive inserted, two the exoskeleton and three the Rod accessory kit. If it is too time consuming to get the individual weights on the later two then simply a gross weight figure would be sufficient.

On conversion... Can you do cross conversion on the fly, say bringing in a HD signal and lay it down to SD? Second can you do conversion processing on files once they have been laid down within the box or be able to cross convert via computer software (such as via Final Cut or standalone s/w from AJA) utilizing the processors within the Ki Pro?

I see on the spec sheet in the Ki Pro brochure that it can do hardware cross conversion of HD signals but I am unclear about when the cross conversion can take place and if the cross conversion can go from HD to SD.

Ed David · June 28th, 2009, 06:04 PM

I can't wait for this device. Any idea on release date?

Barry J. Anwender · June 29th, 2009, 08:21 AM

Lets hope AJA can manage to keep the KiPro in tune with the current SSD marketplace.

Intel launching cheaper SSDs with up to 320GB capacity in two weeks?

Jon Thorn · June 29th, 2009, 10:50 AM

Andreas S. - Yes, using the component output from a Canon XH A1 will be comparable to using the HD-SDI output from the Canon XH G1s. Again, the advantage of using the HD-SDI connection, it that it makes for a single connection for audio and video.

Emmanuel P. - The Ki Pro, when used with the exoskeleton, provides for a small footprint beneath the camera; this means that it does not tend to bias the weight of the camera front or rear as some lenses or rear mounted accessories might. In terms of balance, the exoskeleton even features a sliding plate to adjust the weight distribution of the camera when mounted to the exoskeleton. With regards to the ExpressCard/34 portion of the recorder being removable, this would have added complexity and therefore cost to the design of the unit... but it's certainly a nice idea!

Andrew S. - Ki Pro with the 250GB storage module in place weighs 3.55 lbs, the exoskeleton weighs 2.45 lbs, and the rod endplates weigh 0.7 lbs. As for your conversion questions, you can convert on input and you can convert on output. This means that if you feed an HD signal to the Ki Pro, you can downconvert to an SD recording. Or you can feed Ki Pro a 720p HD signal and record a 1080i HD signal. If you've recorded something already, you can use the device to produce a video output with a conversion. A great way to think about the benefit of the conversions is to use the device to record the format you want to work with in post-production.

Ed D. - We are getting close to release. Thanks for your patience!

Barry A. - One of the best parts of using the 2.5" SATA form factor for the Ki Pro Storage Module is that we will be able to utilize larger capacity SSD drives as they become available.

Hope this is helpful information,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Barry J. Anwender · June 30th, 2009, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

One of the best parts of using the 2.5" SATA form factor for the Ki Pro Storage Module is that we will be able to utilize larger capacity SSD drives as they become available.

Hope this is helpful information,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Jon, will the Ki Pro be using the SATA-3 (6Gb/s) port interface which was standardized late 2008 to make use of the new 4th Generation SSD's?

Micron's smaller NAND chips mean more, faster flash memory in the same old enclosures

Kaarle Kannelmae · July 14th, 2009, 10:18 AM

Hi Jon,

I work in a non-broadcast live event production company, and we are in a great need for a such device as Aja Ki Pro - only one question hangs in my mind - can Ki Pro downconvert in real time? during recording HDSDI signal can it output SD composite/component for montioring on SD monitors?

Perrone Ford · July 14th, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

what's the workflow, if any, for capture and edit on a PC? seems that AJA has missed half the marketplace on this.

I don't know if Jon didn't see this or just ignored it, but it was my question too. I'd LOVE to dump my Firestore for long form recording from my EX1. And right now, my options are really down to two units.

1. Convergent NanoFlash
2. AJA Ki Pro

While I realize that AJA has been in bed with Apple for quite a long time, it's really disheartening to learn that there is absolutely zero provision to provide more than one codec. Jpeg2000 or even DNxHD (both free to license) would have opened the door to users on other platforms at very little additional cost.

This choice by AJA to essentially exclude anyone who is not on FCP turned what should have been a lengthy conversation with my employer into a non-starter.

Jon Thorn · July 14th, 2009, 07:29 PM

Barry A. - Sorry somehow I missed your post regarding SATA 3; I thought I had answered all of the questions you posted originally on drive technology! Since the SATA technology is very new, we are not using this for Ki Pro. But the good news is that SATA 3 technology is backwards compatible with SATA 1 and SATA 2, so this should not be an issue in terms of drive compatibility.

Kaarle K. - Yes, the Ki Pro has the ability to downconvert in realtime via hardware. This means that you could indeed record HD material, but simultaneously downconvert and monitor on your existing SD monitors.

Perrone F. - AJA elected to create an Apple ProRes 422 recorder because there seemed to be a need for such a device considering the large Final Cut Pro user base and their desire to work with a high quality codec like Apple ProRes 422 in post. Keep in mind that while JPEG 2000 and Avid's DNxHD might be "free to license", this does not mean that they are "free to implement"; a great deal of development time is spent implementing software compression schemes in hardware... and the more codecs you implement, the longer your development and testing phases, etc. Yes, the majority of those who will benefit from Ki Pro will be Final Cut Pro users, but since Apple offers QuickTime decoders for Apple ProRes files for both the Mac and the PC, it is still a useful codec for users who are not working specifically with Final Cut Pro or even a Mac.

As always, hope this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Perrone Ford · July 14th, 2009, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Thorn

Perrone F. - AJA elected to create an Apple ProRes 422 recorder because there seemed to be a need for such a device considering the large Final Cut Pro user base and their desire to work with a high quality codec like Apple ProRes 422 in post. Keep in mind that while JPEG 2000 and Avid's DNxHD might be "free to license", this does not mean that they are "free to implement"; a great deal of development time is spent implementing software compression schemes in hardware... and the more codecs you implement, the longer your development and testing phases, etc. Yes, the majority of those who will benefit from Ki Pro will be Final Cut Pro users, but since Apple offers QuickTime decoders for Apple ProRes files for both the Mac and the PC, it is still a useful codec for users who are not working specifically with Final Cut Pro or even a Mac.

As always, hope this information is helpful,
Jon Thorn
Product Manager
AJA Video Systems, Inc.
California

Jon,

Thanks for your reply. While I am certain you are privy to better numbers than me, I am curious as to whether your numbers show you there are more FCP users out there or more Avid users. I wonder if the unit recorded to JPEG2000 or DNxHD, instead of ProRes if it would be as popular.

Perhaps it is because I am not a FCP user that units like this, and cameras like the new JVC that shoots to ProRes, tend to irk me. Sometimes I think the popularity of ProRes is out of all proportion to FCPs installed base. It is even more bothersome when you consider that FCE cannot read ProRes, so you lock out the non-pro Apple users too.

Thanks to Apples generosity, PC users with modern Quicktime installations can read ProRes. I suppose we should be grateful for this one-way free ticket, but it rings awfully hollow when there are other codecs that perform just as well and are readable and writable on multiple platforms.

I wish you guys all the best. It seems as though this product will knock it out of the park. I am just sorry that it can't be a legitimate consideration for me at this time.

Ed David · July 15th, 2009, 09:05 PM

Do one thing and do it well. For me, I'd be able to transcode it as pro res onto a pc. 10 bit 422 with a great build quality that won't fail in the field. modular harddrives. I am sold. I also like the extra time AJA is putting into the unit. They are taking their time to make it right. Now I hope the thing works :)

June 24th, 2009, 03:15 PM	#78
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Camera choices, media and interface questions Lonnie B. - Yes, you can certainly use camcorders with component analog HD outputs. These will work fine and produce excellent results. The main reason I listed the particular cameras I did is because they shared similar features at similar price points. Also note that you can run HD-SDI signals greater distances than a component signal, however this isn't much of an issue if all you are doing is connecting your camera's output to the Ki Pro. The SDI connection is really just an "ease of use" proposition when connecting to Ki Pro since it could carry the audio and video signals via one cable. Barry A. - I would still say that our disk pricing is pretty realistic - even for the SSD units - when compared with other camera based solid state recording media like P2 or SxS. As for do-it-yourself solutions... we don't want to offer "empty storage modules" that users can fill, because, again to reiterate this point, we don't want people to try to use possibly inadequate disks to populate the cases and then have problems. Simple as that. As for your second question, the storage module features a FireWire 800 port as well as the SATA connector. The FireWire 800 connector allows the media to be connected to a wide variety of computers easily and this one cable can provide the data connection as well as the power. While we aren't offering any SATA connection for the drive to the computer at the outset, we won't rule out the possibility that a cable or adapter will be offered at a later date to take advantage of the speed inherent to this type of connection. Harrison M. - You bring up some good points... not all SSDs are priced the same, and often for good reason; they don't all share the same performance characteristics (and performance characteristics aren't always about the manufacturer's stated benchmark numbers...) To use your language, we aren't trying to "soak anyone" for the cost of the storage. If we were, EVERYTHING about Ki Pro would be much, much more expensive! Thanks for your questions! Sorry if my reply to some of them is a bit tardy. Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

June 29th, 2009, 08:21 AM	#83
Barry J. Anwender Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Saskatchewan, Canada Posts: 382	Cheaper SSD In Two Weeks Lets hope AJA can manage to keep the KiPro in tune with the current SSD marketplace. Intel launching cheaper SSDs with up to 320GB capacity in two weeks?

June 29th, 2009, 10:50 AM	#84
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	Answers to your latest questions Andreas S. - Yes, using the component output from a Canon XH A1 will be comparable to using the HD-SDI output from the Canon XH G1s. Again, the advantage of using the HD-SDI connection, it that it makes for a single connection for audio and video. Emmanuel P. - The Ki Pro, when used with the exoskeleton, provides for a small footprint beneath the camera; this means that it does not tend to bias the weight of the camera front or rear as some lenses or rear mounted accessories might. In terms of balance, the exoskeleton even features a sliding plate to adjust the weight distribution of the camera when mounted to the exoskeleton. With regards to the ExpressCard/34 portion of the recorder being removable, this would have added complexity and therefore cost to the design of the unit... but it's certainly a nice idea! Andrew S. - Ki Pro with the 250GB storage module in place weighs 3.55 lbs, the exoskeleton weighs 2.45 lbs, and the rod endplates weigh 0.7 lbs. As for your conversion questions, you can convert on input and you can convert on output. This means that if you feed an HD signal to the Ki Pro, you can downconvert to an SD recording. Or you can feed Ki Pro a 720p HD signal and record a 1080i HD signal. If you've recorded something already, you can use the device to produce a video output with a conversion. A great way to think about the benefit of the conversions is to use the device to record the format you want to work with in post-production. Ed D. - We are getting close to release. Thanks for your patience! Barry A. - One of the best parts of using the 2.5" SATA form factor for the Ki Pro Storage Module is that we will be able to utilize larger capacity SSD drives as they become available. Hope this is helpful information, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

July 14th, 2009, 07:29 PM	#88
Jon Thorn AJA Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Grass Valley, CA Posts: 252	SATA, live downconversion and codec choice Barry A. - Sorry somehow I missed your post regarding SATA 3; I thought I had answered all of the questions you posted originally on drive technology! Since the SATA technology is very new, we are not using this for Ki Pro. But the good news is that SATA 3 technology is backwards compatible with SATA 1 and SATA 2, so this should not be an issue in terms of drive compatibility. Kaarle K. - Yes, the Ki Pro has the ability to downconvert in realtime via hardware. This means that you could indeed record HD material, but simultaneously downconvert and monitor on your existing SD monitors. Perrone F. - AJA elected to create an Apple ProRes 422 recorder because there seemed to be a need for such a device considering the large Final Cut Pro user base and their desire to work with a high quality codec like Apple ProRes 422 in post. Keep in mind that while JPEG 2000 and Avid's DNxHD might be "free to license", this does not mean that they are "free to implement"; a great deal of development time is spent implementing software compression schemes in hardware... and the more codecs you implement, the longer your development and testing phases, etc. Yes, the majority of those who will benefit from Ki Pro will be Final Cut Pro users, but since Apple offers QuickTime decoders for Apple ProRes files for both the Mac and the PC, it is still a useful codec for users who are not working specifically with Final Cut Pro or even a Mac. As always, hope this information is helpful, Jon Thorn Product Manager AJA Video Systems, Inc. California

June 23rd, 2009, 07:54 PM	#76
Harrison Murchison Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 243	Count me in as someone that would like to see Firewire 3200 become the next connection standard. My reasons. 1. 400 Megabyte per second transfer 2. Same cables and circuitry as FW800 3. Powered ports 4. Peer to peer architecture My only beef with SATA is that we now need to wait for the second revision to get above 300 MBps data and it's a hosted architecture like USB in that I have to have a computer in the chain. I think we're stuck in the middle right now with aging external connectivity (USB 2.0 and FW800 and eSATA) that are rapidly being outstripped by SSD.

June 24th, 2009, 04:47 PM	#80
Emmanuel Plakiotis Major Player Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 344	The form of the KiPro resembles the old field recorder from Sony (it came in all format flavors BETAcam/Dvcam/HDcam), thus making it suitable for all situations where a videoman is needed. On the other hand is not very practical for steadicam or small crews and I believe that the tripod cage is not an ideal solutions because of weight, size and balancing issues. This could be addressed if the expresscard unit was detachable in order to function as an on camera recorder (much like JVC's KA-MR100G SxS memory card recorder). Otherwise, with an SSD drive, the expresscard option is pointless in my opinion.

June 25th, 2009, 10:01 AM	#81
Andrew Stone Major Player Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 975	Jon, I have a two questions. One weight related and the other about conversion. Could you let us know the weight of the individual components: the Ki Pro itself with a hard drive inserted, two the exoskeleton and three the Rod accessory kit. If it is too time consuming to get the individual weights on the later two then simply a gross weight figure would be sufficient. On conversion... Can you do cross conversion on the fly, say bringing in a HD signal and lay it down to SD? Second can you do conversion processing on files once they have been laid down within the box or be able to cross convert via computer software (such as via Final Cut or standalone s/w from AJA) utilizing the processors within the Ki Pro? I see on the spec sheet in the Ki Pro brochure that it can do hardware cross conversion of HD signals but I am unclear about when the cross conversion can take place and if the cross conversion can go from HD to SD.

June 28th, 2009, 06:04 PM	#82
Ed David Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 119	I can't wait for this device. Any idea on release date?

July 14th, 2009, 10:18 AM	#86
Kaarle Kannelmae Tourist Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Tallinn (Estonia) Posts: 3	Hi Jon, I work in a non-broadcast live event production company, and we are in a great need for a such device as Aja Ki Pro - only one question hangs in my mind - can Ki Pro downconvert in real time? during recording HDSDI signal can it output SD composite/component for montioring on SD monitors?

July 15th, 2009, 09:05 PM	#90
Ed David Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 119	Do one thing and do it well. For me, I'd be able to transcode it as pro res onto a pc. 10 bit 422 with a great build quality that won't fail in the field. modular harddrives. I am sold. I also like the extra time AJA is putting into the unit. They are taking their time to make it right. Now I hope the thing works :)