1.5.1 Cineform > 2.0? at DVinfo.net

Julian Meli · March 2nd, 2007, 11:19 AM

Is there anyway to let PP2.0 export Cineform HD, by somehow copying the system files from 1.51 into PP2.0.

I have copied the HDV folder in 1.51 to 2.0 and now Cineform HD shows up in 2.0 export but when you choose it to use it, it'll seem as if it's exporting the frames - but when you go to play the final file its 0kb and has no frames.

Chris Barcellos · March 2nd, 2007, 11:34 AM

I believe that Cineform export capability was specifically precluded from 2.0. I'm guessing that behind the scenes there were "rights" issues between the Adobe and Cineform, and Adobe didn't want to pay for the capability in 2.0. Ultimately, the only way I can see to output Cineform in 2.0 is to buy Aspect.

You can still have 1.51 and 2.0 on the same system, so if that is what you want, to edit with, use 1.51. Cineform will tell you, however, that you are using an outdated codec and won't get best results currently available.

Vegas 6 and 7 do offer seem to off Cineform intermediate output, though it is not labeled that in the output put folders.

Julian Meli · March 2nd, 2007, 12:07 PM

I suppose I could use 1.51 to export and convert Cineform, then edit in 2.0, when I'm done editing load in 1.51 for export. You think this method would cause any majour issues or screw up my edits?

Chris Barcellos · March 2nd, 2007, 12:14 PM

Haven't tried it to any great extent, as I have primarily been editing in HDV native, since I upgraded to Pro 2.0. But for maximum edit control, it should work, assuming Pro 2.0 lets you out put it. But it will not allow you to export even that edited footage to Cineform intermediate, I think...

Julian Meli · March 2nd, 2007, 01:47 PM

Chris, what do you reccommend the next best thing to the Cineform codec?

David Newman · March 2nd, 2007, 02:14 PM

The free CineForm components within 1.5.1 are very old. The new components within Aspect HD 4.3 are higher quality and higher performance, you should test it out.

Chris Barcellos · March 2nd, 2007, 06:12 PM

As David says, try the Aspect HD trial with Pro 2.0. Decide whether its worth it.

With Premiere Pro 2.0, I don't know of anything better. Next best thing I know of is simply editing in HDV. That has its risks and problems in the finished edit, and that is why Cineform was born. If this HDV is a living for you, you have to bite the bullet. For me, HDV is a hobby, so I live with less than best results...

Julian Meli · March 2nd, 2007, 06:25 PM

I have tried the 15 day trial and it has now finished, I did like it alot, but dont know if I'm exactly ready to spend that kind of money. If you do buy it, does it come with updates? Are there any similiar competiting codecs that are similiar the Cineform that can encode and decode to HD .avi?

Chris Barcellos · March 2nd, 2007, 06:56 PM

Julian:

That the issue, can I afford it...? I haven't followed the other encoders out there to any great extent.

Cineform does have HD Connect for about $199.00, which will work with other editors like Vegas. Aspect has a lot of addon features that plug into Premiere, that adds to its value. I do not know if you can use HD Connect which would have the updated codecs in Premiere. David ??

Brad Tyrrell · March 3rd, 2007, 07:29 AM

I tried Cineform and liked it a lot, - just didn't think I needed it $500 worth. I'm editing in PP2 in native HDV and frameserving with Debugmode to Tmpgenc 4 express. A couple of drawbacks (rolling titles for one) but I've found workarounds.

I figured I'd wait and see what Adobe unveils this summer before investing.

Julian Meli · March 3rd, 2007, 10:45 AM

Brad - I've heard of frameserving twice now in PP2.0, how is this done exactly?

Brad Tyrrell · March 3rd, 2007, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian Meli

Brad - I've heard of frameserving twice now in PP2.0, how is this done exactly?

There are several ways. I chose Debugmode since it seems simplest. Avisynth is another method but a little less user friendly. There are a couple of others.

Debugmode is a free download. Install it and put the PP module in Premiere's plug-in folder and you're all set.

The Debugmode framserver appears as an option in the export menu in PP2. Choose that and create a "placeholder" file. Don't close PP2 or Debug, open the program you want to framserve to (in my case Tmpgenc) input the placeholder. It works as if you had created an avi and input that, - just a frame at a time.

Since I don't want to recompress or resize before I get to Tmpgenc, it saves making a massive intermediate file.

Julian Meli · March 3rd, 2007, 01:27 PM

Brad,

I've tried out the DebugMode frameserving and it seems like the perfect fix untill I can afford moving to Cineform. A few questions, now when editing - After I have made edits (ie: transitions, colour corrections, blurs, etc.) before I can frame serve I'll need to render the file as like editing with DV AVI?

From my understanding though, I do lose quality with each render in Adobe on the timelime working in the native .mpeg capture, [someone confirm?] or do I only lose quality when I export with the Adobe Media Encoder?. If this is all correct it is my main want to move to Cineform primarily because it is apparently lossless with each export (and no need to render).

Brad Tyrrell · March 3rd, 2007, 02:32 PM

I never render in Premiere unless I absolutely need to preview in real time. As far as I know, Premiere doesn't use its rendered preview files for export anyway, so no matter how many times you render, it doesn't matter. It re-renders from the original footage for export and compresses as necessary. When you export a file, you generally compress and you lose some quality. Even though Cineform is very good you still lose, just not much.

The way to not lose quality is not to decompress/recompress many times. The problem is that exporting uncompressed from PP2 gives you a GIGANTIC file. That's why I frameserve. I resize and compress with Tmpgenc so some quality is lost there, as in any resizing and compressing. But, if I feed it directly from the timeline in Premiere, I only lose once not multiple times.

I'm led to believe there is a slight loss in color sampling due to frameserving expediency but I haven't noticed.

Everytime you compress/export you lose some quality no matter what the codec is. The idea is to do it as few times as possible. Rendering in Premiere without export doesn't count.

Julian Meli · March 3rd, 2007, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Tyrrell

As far as I know, Premiere doesn't use its rendered preview files for export anyway, so no matter how many times you render, it doesn't matter. It re-renders from the original footage for export and compresses as necessary.

Can someone confirm this? Also, does this mean I can leave it unrendered on the timeline when I'm exporting via frame serve - Export or Adobe Media Encoder?

March 2nd, 2007, 11:19 AM	#1
Julian Meli Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	1.5.1 Cineform > 2.0? Is there anyway to let PP2.0 export Cineform HD, by somehow copying the system files from 1.51 into PP2.0. I have copied the HDV folder in 1.51 to 2.0 and now Cineform HD shows up in 2.0 export but when you choose it to use it, it'll seem as if it's exporting the frames - but when you go to play the final file its 0kb and has no frames.

March 2nd, 2007, 11:34 AM	#2
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I believe that Cineform export capability was specifically precluded from 2.0. I'm guessing that behind the scenes there were "rights" issues between the Adobe and Cineform, and Adobe didn't want to pay for the capability in 2.0. Ultimately, the only way I can see to output Cineform in 2.0 is to buy Aspect. You can still have 1.51 and 2.0 on the same system, so if that is what you want, to edit with, use 1.51. Cineform will tell you, however, that you are using an outdated codec and won't get best results currently available. Vegas 6 and 7 do offer seem to off Cineform intermediate output, though it is not labeled that in the output put folders. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

March 2nd, 2007, 12:14 PM	#4
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Haven't tried it to any great extent, as I have primarily been editing in HDV native, since I upgraded to Pro 2.0. But for maximum edit control, it should work, assuming Pro 2.0 lets you out put it. But it will not allow you to export even that edited footage to Cineform intermediate, I think... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

March 2nd, 2007, 02:14 PM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	The free CineForm components within 1.5.1 are very old. The new components within Aspect HD 4.3 are higher quality and higher performance, you should test it out. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 2nd, 2007, 06:12 PM	#7
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	As David says, try the Aspect HD trial with Pro 2.0. Decide whether its worth it. With Premiere Pro 2.0, I don't know of anything better. Next best thing I know of is simply editing in HDV. That has its risks and problems in the finished edit, and that is why Cineform was born. If this HDV is a living for you, you have to bite the bullet. For me, HDV is a hobby, so I live with less than best results... __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

March 2nd, 2007, 12:07 PM	#3
Julian Meli Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	I suppose I could use 1.51 to export and convert Cineform, then edit in 2.0, when I'm done editing load in 1.51 for export. You think this method would cause any majour issues or screw up my edits?

March 2nd, 2007, 01:47 PM	#5
Julian Meli Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	Chris, what do you reccommend the next best thing to the Cineform codec?

March 2nd, 2007, 06:25 PM	#8
Julian Meli Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	I have tried the 15 day trial and it has now finished, I did like it alot, but dont know if I'm exactly ready to spend that kind of money. If you do buy it, does it come with updates? Are there any similiar competiting codecs that are similiar the Cineform that can encode and decode to HD .avi?

March 2nd, 2007, 06:56 PM	#9
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Julian: That the issue, can I afford it...? I haven't followed the other encoders out there to any great extent. Cineform does have HD Connect for about $199.00, which will work with other editors like Vegas. Aspect has a lot of addon features that plug into Premiere, that adds to its value. I do not know if you can use HD Connect which would have the updated codecs in Premiere. David ?? __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

March 3rd, 2007, 07:29 AM	#10
Brad Tyrrell Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Morristown, New Jersey Posts: 249	I tried Cineform and liked it a lot, - just didn't think I needed it $500 worth. I'm editing in PP2 in native HDV and frameserving with Debugmode to Tmpgenc 4 express. A couple of drawbacks (rolling titles for one) but I've found workarounds. I figured I'd wait and see what Adobe unveils this summer before investing.

March 3rd, 2007, 10:45 AM	#11
Julian Meli Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	Brad - I've heard of frameserving twice now in PP2.0, how is this done exactly?

March 3rd, 2007, 01:27 PM	#13
Julian Meli Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 31	Brad, I've tried out the DebugMode frameserving and it seems like the perfect fix untill I can afford moving to Cineform. A few questions, now when editing - After I have made edits (ie: transitions, colour corrections, blurs, etc.) before I can frame serve I'll need to render the file as like editing with DV AVI? From my understanding though, I do lose quality with each render in Adobe on the timelime working in the native .mpeg capture, [someone confirm?] or do I only lose quality when I export with the Adobe Media Encoder?. If this is all correct it is my main want to move to Cineform primarily because it is apparently lossless with each export (and no need to render).

March 3rd, 2007, 02:32 PM	#14
Brad Tyrrell Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Morristown, New Jersey Posts: 249	I never render in Premiere unless I absolutely need to preview in real time. As far as I know, Premiere doesn't use its rendered preview files for export anyway, so no matter how many times you render, it doesn't matter. It re-renders from the original footage for export and compresses as necessary. When you export a file, you generally compress and you lose some quality. Even though Cineform is very good you still lose, just not much. The way to not lose quality is not to decompress/recompress many times. The problem is that exporting uncompressed from PP2 gives you a GIGANTIC file. That's why I frameserve. I resize and compress with Tmpgenc so some quality is lost there, as in any resizing and compressing. But, if I feed it directly from the timeline in Premiere, I only lose once not multiple times. I'm led to believe there is a slight loss in color sampling due to frameserving expediency but I haven't noticed. Everytime you compress/export you lose some quality no matter what the codec is. The idea is to do it as few times as possible. Rendering in Premiere without export doesn't count.