Output quality from PP2

Gene Crucean · December 3rd, 2006, 02:17 AM

Actually that Deinterlace option is just for the preview window. If you look on the right side you will see that Lower is selected in the field order option.

Good eye though.

Jason White · December 5th, 2006, 11:26 PM

I'm having the same problems with PP2. Everything in my preview monitor looks great. Great clarity and color. But once a export to DVD with a 1 pass CBR, highest quality 7mb dvd quality, throw that into a dvd player hooked up to the same monitor my output literally looks like crap. The picture is soft and washed-out. If it is a close-up shot of something the results aren't as bad, but in a wide-angle picture everything is very noticably blurry.

I have just ran through a whole slew of winxp tweeks which I know will have zero effect on my encoded mpeg2 quality-wise. But I have a custom built system so I'm trying to narrow it in. So I'll continue testing tomorrow along with looking into getting a good 3rd party encoder to see if this fixes my results.

I know this is a open-ended question, but does anyone know what is the best program for encoding avi to mpeg2? Money is no object to have the same quality video that I see on my timeline exported to my DVDs. I'll be the guinney*pig for everyone. :)

Bart Walczak · December 6th, 2006, 04:09 AM

I've heard that this one is very good:

http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/sp.html

It's pretty pricey too. You can request a trial version and check for yourself. The good thing is that it can be used from PPro timeline.

Ervin Farkas · December 6th, 2006, 06:55 AM

I second Bart's advice - try Cinema Craft. Still, your problems do not originate with the MainConcept encoder in my opinion... so another encoder may or may not solve them. MainConcept may not be the top of the world, but it's not the worst either - I have friends releasing full lenght feature videos encoding directly from Premiere.

Jason White · December 6th, 2006, 06:00 PM

Ok, I'm pretty confident that I have found the solution. When go to your encoding settings, check under the "Basic Video Settings" and you see the "Field Order" drop-down. I believe the setting of "Lower" is to blame. I for one have never messed with this setting assuming that since I had picked 4x3 High Quality 5.0, that "Lower" was the proper selection. Nope. I changed the Field Order to "none(Progressive)" and now my exported DVDs look great. Just like from the timeline.

I also tried the Field Order setting of "Upper" and my DVD looked exactly like when "Lower" was selected, blurry. Can anyone else confirm? I don't know why there would be Lower and Upper settings or even why Lower would be the default. Anywho, everything is looking good.

Gene Crucean · December 6th, 2006, 06:06 PM

But now you're messing with standards. Lower field first is the NTSC standard. HDV is upper first. Changing this to progressive isn't really a fix, even though I wish it was.

Jason White · December 6th, 2006, 06:40 PM

Well maybe so. But as a test I went into Adobe Media Encode, selected my format as MPEG, then selected NTSF generic as my format. Then went down and changed VBR to CBR and then changed the Mpbs from 6.0 to 7.0 to resemble that of a burned DVD.

I then encoded my 3:45 sec. videoclip in both Field Order Lower and also Field Order none(Progressive). I can see a noticable difference between the two and more interestingly they both came out to be 195 megabytes each. No change in file size but a huge change visually.

Hope it helps some.

Miguel Lombana · December 8th, 2006, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason White

Well maybe so. But as a test I went into Adobe Media Encode, selected my format as MPEG, then selected NTSF generic as my format. Then went down and changed VBR to CBR and then changed the Mpbs from 6.0 to 7.0 to resemble that of a burned DVD.

I then encoded my 3:45 sec. videoclip in both Field Order Lower and also Field Order none(Progressive). I can see a noticable difference between the two and more interestingly they both came out to be 195 megabytes each. No change in file size but a huge change visually.

Hope it helps some.

Export the file as an AVI from the timeline, get a copy of Canopus Procoder Express (much cheaper and just as functional as the big version) run Procoder on your AVI and pick the format that you desire, you'll be very pleased, import that file into your DVD software (in my case Sony DVD Arch) and see if you're getting the results you desire.

I have been running into these problems for as long as Premier Pro has been out and stopped exporting using their encoder after about 2 days and the lackluster results you get. There are some other workflows that you can experiment with, but in the end you're going to find that a 50 dollar add on software program such as ProCoder or TMPGenc will give you the exact results that you're looking for consistently each and every time.

BTW, my typical workflow is PPRO2.0 to AVI to TMPGenc to Sony DVD Arch and to the customer, for my HDV projects, it's PPro2.0 with Aspect HD to a Cineform AVI to Procoder to MPEG to Architech so only a slight mod to work on the HDV files.

In short however you're right, AMC is notoriously horrid, cumbersome and unreliable for solid production.

Thanks for your screen caps, excellent illustration of your frustration.

ml

Noel Kitchen · December 8th, 2006, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Crucean

If I export a DVD straight from the timeline it just looks like complete crap. I'm selecting the highest quality setting in the DVD export dialog.

What settings are you guys using to get good quality?

Hi Gene,

Just to make sure, are you Exporting to "DVD" or "Adobe Media Encoder (AME) "?.

I've compared the two and there is quite a difference, even if the settings are exactly the same. AME is much better.

Gene Crucean · December 8th, 2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noel Kitchen

Hi Gene,

Just to make sure, are you Exporting to "DVD" or "Adobe Media Encoder (AME) "?.

I've compared the two and there is quite a difference, even if the settings are exactly the same. AME is much better.

I've been using the "export to DVD" and then exporting to a folder instead of a disk.

I'll do some more tests in a bit.

Christopher Lefchik · December 11th, 2006, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Crucean

Actually that Deinterlace option is just for the preview window. If you look on the right side you will see that Lower is selected in the field order option.

Good eye though.

I'm pretty sure the Deinterlace option does in fact deinterlace the exported video file. The preview window is to show you the result of your selected options.

Christopher Lefchik · December 11th, 2006, 01:45 PM

I for one will admit QuickTime exports have traditionally been poor quality - but that was due to the anemic QuickTime codecs. Now with the new QuickTime H.264 codec you can install the free QuickTime 7 Player and access the QuickTime H.264 codec within the Adobe Media Encoder. The one thing I will mention is that the bit rate slider is still very inaccurate when encoding to QuickTime in the Adobe Media Encoder. It's hard to believe they didn't fix such a basic bug considering they did a major rewrite of the Media Encoder for the new Production Studio.

Regarding Windows Media exports, I can't really say that I have seen noticeably superior results from Microsoft's standalone Windows Media Encoder than I have from Adobe Media Encoder.

Gene Crucean · December 11th, 2006, 02:43 PM

So you haven't noticed the gamma/levels tweak out when exporting to H.264?

Michael Y Wong · December 11th, 2006, 02:53 PM

PPro 2.0 export is $h!tty!!!

Here is tried and true SIMPLE workflow that I've been using to get excellent DVD/WMV-HD results. Just so you guys know, I shoot everything in HDV so this may not apply to some of you SD guys.

-Shoot HDV -> HDVSPLIT
-Edit PPro 2.0 - edit from original m2ts only (never 2nd generation)
-Export 60i HDV m2t (Video Quality HIGH 5.0)

All you really need is Procoder.

The 60i HDV m2t will be interlaced (not a problem @ all), from this master file I:

1) ARCHIVE back to HDV Tape - Simple enuf

2) DVD -dump m2t into canpus proCoder -> DVDs 6-8 VBR Master Quality. Leave as interlaced. This will create the m2v and wav files that you can put into Encore for a BEAUTIFUL looking DVD. Colour space remain identical to original source IMO. The reason people complain about jaggies via this method is becuz they are viewing the DVD on a progressive device but without a de-interlacing filter applied. You will notice jaggies if playing via an progressive display without applying a de-interlacing filter (ie. on the computer). But when playing on a progressive dvd player on progressive display you'll have no noticible jaggies. Even on standard interlaced TV the results are beautiful.

Yes I have fiddled with the Cineform->VirtualDub->Tmpgenc workaround and it is too much work for nominal gains.

As an ultimate test, I've hooked up my hdv camcorder directly to my wvga (854x480) projector (100 inch screen), compared the output from watching down rezzed HDV (projector downrezzes 1080i from HDV camera), then downrezzed SD (in camera downrezzed), DVD created via the method above, there are honestly next to NO significant overall resolution differences that I can see.

3) WMV-HD - plug the m2t into procoder, I created my own 720p 5mbs constrained vbr preset (similar settings used via windows media encoder). Turn on adaptive de-interlacing filter as well as the audio filter to clean up any clipping and voila, solid 720p output where you can fit 2 hours of material on a single layer disc. I have been including this as an option for wedding videos that I have been doing and my clients are blown away @ the output.

I hope this helps!

Michael

Christopher Lefchik · December 11th, 2006, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gene Crucean

So you haven't noticed the gamma/levels tweak out when exporting to H.264?

You mean the overall brightening of the image?

December 6th, 2006, 06:55 AM	#34
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	I second Bart's advice - try Cinema Craft. Still, your problems do not originate with the MainConcept encoder in my opinion... so another encoder may or may not solve them. MainConcept may not be the top of the world, but it's not the worst either - I have friends releasing full lenght feature videos encoding directly from Premiere. __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

December 11th, 2006, 02:53 PM	#44
Michael Y Wong Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada! Posts: 353	PPro 2.0 export is $h!tty!!! Here is tried and true SIMPLE workflow that I've been using to get excellent DVD/WMV-HD results. Just so you guys know, I shoot everything in HDV so this may not apply to some of you SD guys. -Shoot HDV -> HDVSPLIT -Edit PPro 2.0 - edit from original m2ts only (never 2nd generation) -Export 60i HDV m2t (Video Quality HIGH 5.0) All you really need is Procoder. The 60i HDV m2t will be interlaced (not a problem @ all), from this master file I: 1) ARCHIVE back to HDV Tape - Simple enuf 2) DVD -dump m2t into canpus proCoder -> DVDs 6-8 VBR Master Quality. Leave as interlaced. This will create the m2v and wav files that you can put into Encore for a BEAUTIFUL looking DVD. Colour space remain identical to original source IMO. The reason people complain about jaggies via this method is becuz they are viewing the DVD on a progressive device but without a de-interlacing filter applied. You will notice jaggies if playing via an progressive display without applying a de-interlacing filter (ie. on the computer). But when playing on a progressive dvd player on progressive display you'll have no noticible jaggies. Even on standard interlaced TV the results are beautiful. Yes I have fiddled with the Cineform->VirtualDub->Tmpgenc workaround and it is too much work for nominal gains. As an ultimate test, I've hooked up my hdv camcorder directly to my wvga (854x480) projector (100 inch screen), compared the output from watching down rezzed HDV (projector downrezzes 1080i from HDV camera), then downrezzed SD (in camera downrezzed), DVD created via the method above, there are honestly next to NO significant overall resolution differences that I can see. 3) WMV-HD - plug the m2t into procoder, I created my own 720p 5mbs constrained vbr preset (similar settings used via windows media encoder). Turn on adaptive de-interlacing filter as well as the audio filter to clean up any clipping and voila, solid 720p output where you can fit 2 hours of material on a single layer disc. I have been including this as an option for wedding videos that I have been doing and my clients are blown away @ the output. I hope this helps! Michael __________________ dreaming hobbyist + storyteller www.michaelywong.com

December 3rd, 2006, 02:17 AM	#31
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	Actually that Deinterlace option is just for the preview window. If you look on the right side you will see that Lower is selected in the field order option. Good eye though.

December 5th, 2006, 11:26 PM	#32
Jason White Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 32	I'm having the same problems with PP2. Everything in my preview monitor looks great. Great clarity and color. But once a export to DVD with a 1 pass CBR, highest quality 7mb dvd quality, throw that into a dvd player hooked up to the same monitor my output literally looks like crap. The picture is soft and washed-out. If it is a close-up shot of something the results aren't as bad, but in a wide-angle picture everything is very noticably blurry. I have just ran through a whole slew of winxp tweeks which I know will have zero effect on my encoded mpeg2 quality-wise. But I have a custom built system so I'm trying to narrow it in. So I'll continue testing tomorrow along with looking into getting a good 3rd party encoder to see if this fixes my results. I know this is a open-ended question, but does anyone know what is the best program for encoding avi to mpeg2? Money is no object to have the same quality video that I see on my timeline exported to my DVDs. I'll be the guinney*pig for everyone. :)

December 6th, 2006, 04:09 AM	#33
Bart Walczak Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Warsaw/Poland Posts: 716	I've heard that this one is very good: http://www.cinemacraft.com/eng/sp.html It's pretty pricey too. You can request a trial version and check for yourself. The good thing is that it can be used from PPro timeline.

December 6th, 2006, 06:00 PM	#35
Jason White Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 32	Ok, I'm pretty confident that I have found the solution. When go to your encoding settings, check under the "Basic Video Settings" and you see the "Field Order" drop-down. I believe the setting of "Lower" is to blame. I for one have never messed with this setting assuming that since I had picked 4x3 High Quality 5.0, that "Lower" was the proper selection. Nope. I changed the Field Order to "none(Progressive)" and now my exported DVDs look great. Just like from the timeline. I also tried the Field Order setting of "Upper" and my DVD looked exactly like when "Lower" was selected, blurry. Can anyone else confirm? I don't know why there would be Lower and Upper settings or even why Lower would be the default. Anywho, everything is looking good.

December 6th, 2006, 06:06 PM	#36
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	But now you're messing with standards. Lower field first is the NTSC standard. HDV is upper first. Changing this to progressive isn't really a fix, even though I wish it was.

December 6th, 2006, 06:40 PM	#37
Jason White Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 32	Well maybe so. But as a test I went into Adobe Media Encode, selected my format as MPEG, then selected NTSF generic as my format. Then went down and changed VBR to CBR and then changed the Mpbs from 6.0 to 7.0 to resemble that of a burned DVD. I then encoded my 3:45 sec. videoclip in both Field Order Lower and also Field Order none(Progressive). I can see a noticable difference between the two and more interestingly they both came out to be 195 megabytes each. No change in file size but a huge change visually. Hope it helps some.

December 11th, 2006, 01:45 PM	#42
Christopher Lefchik Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: US Posts: 1,152	I for one will admit QuickTime exports have traditionally been poor quality - but that was due to the anemic QuickTime codecs. Now with the new QuickTime H.264 codec you can install the free QuickTime 7 Player and access the QuickTime H.264 codec within the Adobe Media Encoder. The one thing I will mention is that the bit rate slider is still very inaccurate when encoding to QuickTime in the Adobe Media Encoder. It's hard to believe they didn't fix such a basic bug considering they did a major rewrite of the Media Encoder for the new Production Studio. Regarding Windows Media exports, I can't really say that I have seen noticeably superior results from Microsoft's standalone Windows Media Encoder than I have from Adobe Media Encoder.

December 11th, 2006, 02:43 PM	#43
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	So you haven't noticed the gamma/levels tweak out when exporting to H.264?