Output quality from PP2

Gene Crucean · November 27th, 2006, 11:09 AM

I was wondering the same thing. My only thoughts about that are maybe they are different versions of the encoder? Vegas 7 is newer so maybe it also has a newer version of MainConcepts encoder. My other thought was that the settings are different somewhere... but I for the life of me cannot find what is causing it.

Of course... maybe it's PP2 doing something to the video before export. Hmm... soo many variables.

Still my main concern is with PP2 because I can't get ANY format to export with decent quality. Quicktimes are absolute crap and WMV's are pretty bad too, even with the same settings exported from quicktime pro and windows media encoder.

Kevin Dorsey · November 27th, 2006, 12:03 PM

In my test I made sure my settings were the same as Gene's. There's no doubt in my mind that Adobe's media encoder stinks for exporting quicktime, or Windows media. If I use the same settings, or as close as possible, a file exported from sorenson squeeze, or even quicktime pro, is leaps and bounds (Billions) above than the comparable sized adobe exported file. But the mpeg-2 files looked the same. And the quality of my DVD's are excellent, and very close to the original footage. I'll keep experimenting, because if I can get a better quality export using Vegas then I'll export my shorter projects with that. Whatever works best. :)

Gene Crucean · November 27th, 2006, 01:39 PM

Kevin, would you mind posting some examples? And maybe a screen grab of the settings used like I did?

Harm Millaard · November 27th, 2006, 01:46 PM

Quicktime export from Adobe is notoriously bad. No question about it. Sorenson is far better. But my question was more about the MPEG2-DVD encoding side. In other posts people have asked about the various encoders they can use and there is a long list of them, Procoder, AME, CCE, TMPGEnc, etc.

I would be interested in hearing about the qualities of these in comparison to each other. Procoder has a good reputation in terms of quality, but also compatibility problems with Encore, some swear by CCE, others prefer TMPGEnc.
So, what would deliver optimal results at let's say CBR 7 and dual pass VBR, min @ 3, average @ 6 and max @ 8.5?

Any ideas?

Gene Crucean · November 27th, 2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Harm Millaard

Quicktime export from Adobe is notoriously bad. No question about it. Sorenson is far better. But my question was more about the MPEG2-DVD encoding side. In other posts people have asked about the various encoders they can use and there is a long list of them, Procoder, AME, CCE, TMPGEnc, etc.

I would be interested in hearing about the qualities of these in comparison to each other. Procoder has a good reputation in terms of quality, but also compatibility problems with Encore, some swear by CCE, others prefer TMPGEnc.
So, what would deliver optimal results at let's say CBR 7 and dual pass VBR, min @ 3, average @ 6 and max @ 8.5?

Any ideas?

Hijack someone else's thread.

I only care about PP2 and Vegas7 DVD export in this thread. If PP2 can't get the quality up with settings then it's something that I will get on Adobe's ass about.

Jon Jaschob · November 27th, 2006, 04:49 PM

I have found PPro2 export useless. All formats. Really stinks.
My work flow includes two other programs. I'm editing PROHD so I use Aspect HD(the aspect avi files are fantastic). I export as SD wide screen at 23.97 fps progressive. I import into Encore and make my DVD there. I am still not too happy with the results from encore, but at least it looks better than what I got from PPro2. I wish I knew of a good program that would import M2t files and export for DVD and the final product would look fantastic. I guess this is a very tall order for Adobe. I kinda feel ripped off buying CS 2 Pro. The applications don't perform as advertised for HD and sounds like SD isn't any better.
Phooey!
Jon

Ervin Farkas · November 27th, 2006, 08:24 PM

Generally speaking, when a software does everything, it doesn't do anything right; the same I think is true for hardware. Take my Moto Razr cellphone for example... it takes pictures, browses the internet, etc, etc... but the audio quality is far below my old Nokia 6340i. I don't care much about all the gizmos on it, I want a superior PHONE, hello, Moto?!

So we're better off using a separate piece of software for specific tasks. Premiere for editing, a compression software for compressing, Encore for DVD authoring and so forth. And yes, Squeeze is a good compression software!

Just my $0.02...

Gene Crucean · November 27th, 2006, 09:44 PM

Dude, Adobe doesn't even have an intermediate codec to go between it's OWN applications! Adobe is nothing more than photoshop for me these days. It's their only application that's worth a damn, and even that needs improvements.

If you can't export out of PP2 then what good is it? That's how I see it.

Jon Jaschob · November 27th, 2006, 10:41 PM

I for one will be looking into FCP for my next project.....
Jon

Kevin Dorsey · November 28th, 2006, 12:11 AM

Here's a quick test I did. Exported mpeg-2 from Premiere and Vegas. Then re-imported into Premiere to save a tiff. Same settings in both programs, VBR 2-pass, min-3, target-6, max-8. And there's a nice red shirt to show off some dv artifacting. Vegas handles the red better than Premiere, but the footage is a bit darker, I've lost a lot of info in the shadows of the Vegas export. The Premiere export looks the same as the original with the exception of the jaggies along the red shirt. It's a toss up. I think I'll start using Windows Movie Maker.

http://www.stickypod.com/videos/data...xport_test.jpg

Harm Millaard · November 28th, 2006, 03:36 AM

Thanks for posting that information, Kevin. Interesting.

Gene Crucean · November 28th, 2006, 08:06 AM

Thanks for the image Kevin. I still see quite a bit of a difference between them though. The difference isn't quite as much as mine was but if you look around her collar and sleeve you can see it falling apart.

Try saving a frame from each video from Media Player Classic instead of re-importing your footage into premiere to export a tiff.

Jon: Yeah I'm already on it. I just have to finish up a promo video with this turd. It really is so much better... not to mention the massive support Apple gets from the industry. All the cool hardware is made for Apple.

Ash Greyson · November 30th, 2006, 03:45 AM

There is an "issue" with PP2 and Mpeg export but it mainly applies to 24P footage. I generally use the Adobe Media encoder but lock it at 7mbps CBR and I get terrific results, nothing like what I see in either of these tests. For 24P footage, I encode from PP1.5, again, with terrific results.

There are SO many variables in encoding that you often are not comparing apples to apples, one setting clicked here or a GOP value different here and there are very obvious differences. I dont recommend letting your variable bit rate encodings having such a low minimum, I generally keep EVERYTHING at 6mbps or above,

ash =o)

Gene Crucean · November 30th, 2006, 11:32 AM

I've tried the second compression preset down from the top which is 16:9 high quality 7mbps CBR and it's crap. Are you using that preset for a base and then tweaking the settings?

Noel Kitchen · December 1st, 2006, 10:08 PM

Hi Gene,

Going back to the EXPORT Setting which you have posted a picture of, I noticed that on the Ppro, the Deinterlace square is ticked (top left hand corner) whereas on the Vegas the footage is exported as interlaced.

Perhaps you can untick the square on the Ppro. It could explain the difference in output.

As both Vegas and Ppro use the same Encoder "Mainconcept" so I see no reason for the difference in export quality.

good-luck

November 27th, 2006, 12:03 PM	#17
Kevin Dorsey Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 64	In my test I made sure my settings were the same as Gene's. There's no doubt in my mind that Adobe's media encoder stinks for exporting quicktime, or Windows media. If I use the same settings, or as close as possible, a file exported from sorenson squeeze, or even quicktime pro, is leaps and bounds (Billions) above than the comparable sized adobe exported file. But the mpeg-2 files looked the same. And the quality of my DVD's are excellent, and very close to the original footage. I'll keep experimenting, because if I can get a better quality export using Vegas then I'll export my shorter projects with that. Whatever works best. :) Last edited by Kevin Dorsey; November 27th, 2006 at 10:29 PM.

November 27th, 2006, 08:24 PM	#22
Ervin Farkas Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Atlanta/USA Posts: 2,515	Generally speaking, when a software does everything, it doesn't do anything right; the same I think is true for hardware. Take my Moto Razr cellphone for example... it takes pictures, browses the internet, etc, etc... but the audio quality is far below my old Nokia 6340i. I don't care much about all the gizmos on it, I want a superior PHONE, hello, Moto?! So we're better off using a separate piece of software for specific tasks. Premiere for editing, a compression software for compressing, Encore for DVD authoring and so forth. And yes, Squeeze is a good compression software! Just my $0.02... __________________ Ervin Farkas www.AtlantaLegalVideo.com

November 30th, 2006, 11:32 AM	#29
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	I've tried the second compression preset down from the top which is 16:9 high quality 7mbps CBR and it's crap. Are you using that preset for a base and then tweaking the settings? Last edited by Gene Crucean; November 30th, 2006 at 10:57 PM.

November 27th, 2006, 11:09 AM	#16
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	I was wondering the same thing. My only thoughts about that are maybe they are different versions of the encoder? Vegas 7 is newer so maybe it also has a newer version of MainConcepts encoder. My other thought was that the settings are different somewhere... but I for the life of me cannot find what is causing it. Of course... maybe it's PP2 doing something to the video before export. Hmm... soo many variables. Still my main concern is with PP2 because I can't get ANY format to export with decent quality. Quicktimes are absolute crap and WMV's are pretty bad too, even with the same settings exported from quicktime pro and windows media encoder.

November 27th, 2006, 01:39 PM	#18
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	Kevin, would you mind posting some examples? And maybe a screen grab of the settings used like I did?

November 27th, 2006, 01:46 PM	#19
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	Quicktime export from Adobe is notoriously bad. No question about it. Sorenson is far better. But my question was more about the MPEG2-DVD encoding side. In other posts people have asked about the various encoders they can use and there is a long list of them, Procoder, AME, CCE, TMPGEnc, etc. I would be interested in hearing about the qualities of these in comparison to each other. Procoder has a good reputation in terms of quality, but also compatibility problems with Encore, some swear by CCE, others prefer TMPGEnc. So, what would deliver optimal results at let's say CBR 7 and dual pass VBR, min @ 3, average @ 6 and max @ 8.5? Any ideas?

November 27th, 2006, 04:49 PM	#21
Jon Jaschob Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 232	I have found PPro2 export useless. All formats. Really stinks. My work flow includes two other programs. I'm editing PROHD so I use Aspect HD(the aspect avi files are fantastic). I export as SD wide screen at 23.97 fps progressive. I import into Encore and make my DVD there. I am still not too happy with the results from encore, but at least it looks better than what I got from PPro2. I wish I knew of a good program that would import M2t files and export for DVD and the final product would look fantastic. I guess this is a very tall order for Adobe. I kinda feel ripped off buying CS 2 Pro. The applications don't perform as advertised for HD and sounds like SD isn't any better. Phooey! Jon

November 27th, 2006, 09:44 PM	#23
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	Dude, Adobe doesn't even have an intermediate codec to go between it's OWN applications! Adobe is nothing more than photoshop for me these days. It's their only application that's worth a damn, and even that needs improvements. If you can't export out of PP2 then what good is it? That's how I see it.

November 27th, 2006, 10:41 PM	#24
Jon Jaschob Major Player Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 232	I for one will be looking into FCP for my next project..... Jon

November 28th, 2006, 12:11 AM	#25
Kevin Dorsey Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 64	Here's a quick test I did. Exported mpeg-2 from Premiere and Vegas. Then re-imported into Premiere to save a tiff. Same settings in both programs, VBR 2-pass, min-3, target-6, max-8. And there's a nice red shirt to show off some dv artifacting. Vegas handles the red better than Premiere, but the footage is a bit darker, I've lost a lot of info in the shadows of the Vegas export. The Premiere export looks the same as the original with the exception of the jaggies along the red shirt. It's a toss up. I think I'll start using Windows Movie Maker. http://www.stickypod.com/videos/data...xport_test.jpg

November 28th, 2006, 03:36 AM	#26
Harm Millaard Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rotterdam, Netherlands Posts: 1,832	Thanks for posting that information, Kevin. Interesting.

November 28th, 2006, 08:06 AM	#27
Gene Crucean Major Player Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 295	Thanks for the image Kevin. I still see quite a bit of a difference between them though. The difference isn't quite as much as mine was but if you look around her collar and sleeve you can see it falling apart. Try saving a frame from each video from Media Player Classic instead of re-importing your footage into premiere to export a tiff. Jon: Yeah I'm already on it. I just have to finish up a promo video with this turd. It really is so much better... not to mention the massive support Apple gets from the industry. All the cool hardware is made for Apple.

November 30th, 2006, 03:45 AM	#28
Ash Greyson Trustee Join Date: May 2003 Location: Tulsa, OK Posts: 1,689	There is an "issue" with PP2 and Mpeg export but it mainly applies to 24P footage. I generally use the Adobe Media encoder but lock it at 7mbps CBR and I get terrific results, nothing like what I see in either of these tests. For 24P footage, I encode from PP1.5, again, with terrific results. There are SO many variables in encoding that you often are not comparing apples to apples, one setting clicked here or a GOP value different here and there are very obvious differences. I dont recommend letting your variable bit rate encodings having such a low minimum, I generally keep EVERYTHING at 6mbps or above, ash =o)

December 1st, 2006, 10:08 PM	#30
Noel Kitchen Tourist Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 2	Hi Gene, Going back to the EXPORT Setting which you have posted a picture of, I noticed that on the Ppro, the Deinterlace square is ticked (top left hand corner) whereas on the Vegas the footage is exported as interlaced. Perhaps you can untick the square on the Ppro. It could explain the difference in output. As both Vegas and Ppro use the same Encoder "Mainconcept" so I see no reason for the difference in export quality. good-luck