Export to tape 24F/25F? Gotta be a way! at DVinfo.net

Rafael Lopes · September 26th, 2006, 02:28 AM

Hi,

I'm not sure yet, but I might be buying one of the new canon HDV cameras, but there's something that really worries me. I already downloaded the codec that supports 24F/25F but on the installation manual it says you cannot export to tape with 24F/25F. This is really bad for me, because most of the producers I work for demand a copy on dvd AND TAPE. Is there anyway around it? I was thinking that maybe after the editing/cc is complete I could export an mpeg and then play it on a regular timeline...but I have no idea if it would work? How should I export the file for it to work? What type of timeline what I need? Should I capture the footage to the camera using the cameras' interlace mode or again 24F/25F?

Richard Hunter · September 26th, 2006, 03:41 AM

Hi Rafael. I'm not a Premiere Pro guy, so I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me you don't have a big problem to worry about.

If your final output is DVD it is either going to be 24p or 50i (depending on whether you shot 24F or 25F). 24p is obviously progressive, so no problem there. For a PAL DVD made from 25F footage, as long as you edit on a 25p timeline, the output should retain the progressive cadence, even though the actual PAL MPEG2 file is interlaced (per DVD spec).

Regarding the producer demanding a copy on tape, remember, 24F/25F are purely shooting modes used by the camera. They are not delivery formats at all, so you should check if he really does want a Canon-type HDV tape as a master. Most likely he would need a Canon HDV camcorder just to be able to play the tape back. Maybe he would prefer a more standard format tape copy instead (either SD or HD) and so there is no real need to export 24F/25F HDV? Just a thought.

Richard

Rafael Lopes · September 26th, 2006, 07:31 AM

Thanks, Richard. The bigest concern was indeed the export to tape issue, but it's like you said "they don't demand a master tape with real 25F...it's just the cadence". So, basicly I could export the final edited/color corrected file to any format and then play it back on the timeline back to the camera...but since the tape would have to be able to be reproduced in any HDV player I would probably have to export to tape using canon's interlaced capture. So, basicly I would have the progressive look on an interlaced footage.

Richard Hunter · September 26th, 2006, 06:54 PM

Hi Rafael. If you want to make an HDV tape I would think it's best to render the 25F timeline as an HDV-compliant file. If you use any other format, Premiere would not be able to stream it to your camera via FW without going through another rendering stage.

As you say, this HDV file can be normal 50i rather than 25F, which will be more compatible with different HDV devices but still keep the progressive cadance.

Richard

Michael Y Wong · December 11th, 2006, 01:53 PM

Has anyone gotten around this problem or given it a try?

I (& recently TONS others on this forum) have just purchased an XH-A1 so this issue is likely familiar to many now.

Ideally I would figure this to not be a problem:

- Capture 24F material into Premier Pro
- Edit via 24FPS timeline
- Export via 60i HDV m2t(assuming that premier will have to add the 2:3 pulldown required as well as maintain audio sync). Write out the 60i m2t HDV file back to tape, which will play in any sort of HDV hardware.

I believe this is *basically* the approach that the Sony V1U records in its 1080p24 to HDV tape. 24P->add 2:3 pulldown->60i HDV.

If I have time I will give it a try myself this week and post my findings for those who are interested.

Michael

Rafael Lopes · December 11th, 2006, 11:32 PM

I managed to export to tape. I import the 25F footage, edit it, color correct it, and when everything is ready I simply switch the A1 to interlaced instead of progressive and hit "export to tape" on premiere. It with the LOOK of progressive footage that was originally recorded.

Rene Rodriguez · December 13th, 2006, 09:45 PM

Hello,

In the Canon DV cameras (Xl-1s, gl1), when capturing 30f, you still imported footage into your editor as NTSC 29.97 interlaced because that is how it was recorded to tape even though it was captured using Canon's frame movie mode (Canon's method of progressive capture). Does the fact that we are now shooting in High Definition change the above method of importing footage? Does footage captured in 24f and 30f get converted in camera and recorded to tape at 60i? When you edit do you see 24 frames per second on the timeline?

Rafael Lopes · December 14th, 2006, 01:08 AM

It's different with 24F/25F. First of all you'll need to download a pluggin from adobe's website so that you can capture 24F/25F. It's a different method from the one used with the Xl1 and Gl1.

September 26th, 2006, 02:28 AM	#1
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	Export to tape 24F/25F? Gotta be a way! Hi, I'm not sure yet, but I might be buying one of the new canon HDV cameras, but there's something that really worries me. I already downloaded the codec that supports 24F/25F but on the installation manual it says you cannot export to tape with 24F/25F. This is really bad for me, because most of the producers I work for demand a copy on dvd AND TAPE. Is there anyway around it? I was thinking that maybe after the editing/cc is complete I could export an mpeg and then play it on a regular timeline...but I have no idea if it would work? How should I export the file for it to work? What type of timeline what I need? Should I capture the footage to the camera using the cameras' interlace mode or again 24F/25F?

December 11th, 2006, 01:53 PM	#5
Michael Y Wong Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Toronto Ontario Canada! Posts: 353	Has anyone gotten around this problem or given it a try? I (& recently TONS others on this forum) have just purchased an XH-A1 so this issue is likely familiar to many now. Ideally I would figure this to not be a problem: - Capture 24F material into Premier Pro - Edit via 24FPS timeline - Export via 60i HDV m2t(assuming that premier will have to add the 2:3 pulldown required as well as maintain audio sync). Write out the 60i m2t HDV file back to tape, which will play in any sort of HDV hardware. I believe this is basically the approach that the Sony V1U records in its 1080p24 to HDV tape. 24P->add 2:3 pulldown->60i HDV. If I have time I will give it a try myself this week and post my findings for those who are interested. Michael __________________ dreaming hobbyist + storyteller www.michaelywong.com

December 13th, 2006, 09:45 PM	#7
Rene Rodriguez Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 31	Frame Movie Mode then and now Hello, In the Canon DV cameras (Xl-1s, gl1), when capturing 30f, you still imported footage into your editor as NTSC 29.97 interlaced because that is how it was recorded to tape even though it was captured using Canon's frame movie mode (Canon's method of progressive capture). Does the fact that we are now shooting in High Definition change the above method of importing footage? Does footage captured in 24f and 30f get converted in camera and recorded to tape at 60i? When you edit do you see 24 frames per second on the timeline?

September 26th, 2006, 03:41 AM	#2
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Hi Rafael. I'm not a Premiere Pro guy, so I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me you don't have a big problem to worry about. If your final output is DVD it is either going to be 24p or 50i (depending on whether you shot 24F or 25F). 24p is obviously progressive, so no problem there. For a PAL DVD made from 25F footage, as long as you edit on a 25p timeline, the output should retain the progressive cadence, even though the actual PAL MPEG2 file is interlaced (per DVD spec). Regarding the producer demanding a copy on tape, remember, 24F/25F are purely shooting modes used by the camera. They are not delivery formats at all, so you should check if he really does want a Canon-type HDV tape as a master. Most likely he would need a Canon HDV camcorder just to be able to play the tape back. Maybe he would prefer a more standard format tape copy instead (either SD or HD) and so there is no real need to export 24F/25F HDV? Just a thought. Richard

September 26th, 2006, 07:31 AM	#3
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	Thanks, Richard. The bigest concern was indeed the export to tape issue, but it's like you said "they don't demand a master tape with real 25F...it's just the cadence". So, basicly I could export the final edited/color corrected file to any format and then play it back on the timeline back to the camera...but since the tape would have to be able to be reproduced in any HDV player I would probably have to export to tape using canon's interlaced capture. So, basicly I would have the progressive look on an interlaced footage.

September 26th, 2006, 06:54 PM	#4
Richard Hunter Trustee Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lipa City Batangas, Philippines Posts: 1,110	Hi Rafael. If you want to make an HDV tape I would think it's best to render the 25F timeline as an HDV-compliant file. If you use any other format, Premiere would not be able to stream it to your camera via FW without going through another rendering stage. As you say, this HDV file can be normal 50i rather than 25F, which will be more compatible with different HDV devices but still keep the progressive cadance. Richard

December 11th, 2006, 11:32 PM	#6
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	I managed to export to tape. I import the 25F footage, edit it, color correct it, and when everything is ready I simply switch the A1 to interlaced instead of progressive and hit "export to tape" on premiere. It with the LOOK of progressive footage that was originally recorded.

December 14th, 2006, 01:08 AM	#8
Rafael Lopes Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Rio de Janeiro Posts: 1,240	It's different with 24F/25F. First of all you'll need to download a pluggin from adobe's website so that you can capture 24F/25F. It's a different method from the one used with the Xl1 and Gl1.