Is there a way to turn 60i to 60p? at DVinfo.net

David Ziegelheim · September 20th, 2006, 09:20 PM

For sports. Created the project as 720p60. However there doesn't seem to be a way to treat interlaced half frames as full frames. This is common in many sports analysis programs. Was hoping to find a way with PP. So far attempts included frame options and Field Interpolate video effect.

Thanks,

David

Earl Thurston · September 20th, 2006, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Ziegelheim

Created the project as 720p60...

The (Premiere) project is 720p60, but what format is the original footage? 720p60 as well or something else?

David Ziegelheim · September 21st, 2006, 05:47 AM

The original footage is 60i DV. There are 60 720x240 frames there that several sports programs turn into 60p. However, it seems that PP wants to turn it into 30p duplicating frames. If you turn off deinterlacing and interpolation, you get two frames overlayed in each frame.

Is there a way to get it to split the frames with odd on one and even on the other?

Graham Hickling · September 21st, 2006, 07:10 AM

While I'm sure there is a way to do this in PPro, I use the free Virtualdub software to create 720p60 footage, and then import that into premiere for editing.

I trust the quality of the Vdub resizing algorithms, there is a "Smartdeinterlace" filter available that IMHO works better than the PPro deinterlacers, and its fast.

Here's the link to the filter:
http://neuron2.net/smart/smart.html

Earl Thurston · September 22nd, 2006, 11:01 PM

Looks like you may need to use another program for this. No matter what I tried, PPro kept treating the two fields as one frame, which is technically correct but not what you want.

I know that After Effects can do this, though. It can treat individual fields as if they are frames.

David Ziegelheim · September 23rd, 2006, 06:25 PM

How do you do it in AE?

Graham Hickling · September 23rd, 2006, 07:48 PM

Using the 'interpret footage' option. AFX's Help explains the details.

Earl Thurston · September 23rd, 2006, 08:22 PM

I just tried it now and it turned out to be pretty simple. I created a 1280 x 720 59.94 fps composition and loaded an ordinary DV AVI file (720 x 480 29.97 fps/60i). After Effects shows each field on each frame individually.

Keep in mind it has to interpolate the missing lines, so you end up with a shimmering effect as the interpolation alternates between frames. However, that's as good as you would expect for what you are trying to do. (It would take field blending to cover this, which is what you are trying to avoid.)

Interpreting 60i material as 60p is quite common in After Effects as it's the only way to manipulate the individual fields, sometimes needed for complex rotoscoping and retouching work.

Graham Hickling · September 23rd, 2006, 08:28 PM

A good 'bob' filter can virtually eliminate that shimmer ... there are several for AviSynth for example.

Giroud Francois · September 24th, 2006, 04:18 AM

there are only 2 easy way to do this correctly.
1) you trade resolution for speed and you consider each frame as picture.
you got 1080i becomes 540p.
you can uprez to get get back 1080, but this would bring nothing more than what you get already (except more pixel) since doubling line is not really an improvement.
2) you keep resolution and trade for speed.
deinterlacing will get you 1080i60 to 1080p30.
you can interpolate to get back 60p, but the risk is getting artifact visible when looking at stills, because in this process you interpolate twice, at deinterlace and at frame picture doubling. For regular movie, i think it is the best workflow.

If your final product is a DVD or is displayed on Standard Definition device, solution 1 is the best.
if you need to keep it HD, the 2nd solution is better.

Graham Hickling · September 24th, 2006, 09:17 AM

It is perfectly feasible to get good-quality 1080p60 using an appropriate 'smart" deinterlacer. Bright people have put considerable time into developing them.

If you don't consider this 'correct', then by all means stick with your preferred workflow.

Earl Thurston · September 24th, 2006, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Hickling

A good 'bob' filter can virtually eliminate that shimmer...

I hadn't heard of these before, but you are quite right. From what I've read, a "bob" filter selectively chooses which parts of the image to interpolate or not based on movement. For example, if something is static in the background, it will combine the two fields rather than interpolate the missing lines, but if something is moving in the foreground, then various types of interpolation (some "smart", some rudimentary, depending on the filter) will fill in the missing lines.

September 20th, 2006, 09:20 PM	#1
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	Is there a way to turn 60i to 60p? For sports. Created the project as 720p60. However there doesn't seem to be a way to treat interlaced half frames as full frames. This is common in many sports analysis programs. Was hoping to find a way with PP. So far attempts included frame options and Field Interpolate video effect. Thanks, David

September 22nd, 2006, 11:01 PM	#5
Earl Thurston Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Burnaby & Maple Ridge BC Posts: 289	Looks like you may need to use another program for this. No matter what I tried, PPro kept treating the two fields as one frame, which is technically correct but not what you want. I know that After Effects can do this, though. It can treat individual fields as if they are frames. __________________ Earl R. Thurston, Stargate Connections Inc. Made with GY-HD100: The Container Adventures: The Rescue

September 23rd, 2006, 08:22 PM	#8
Earl Thurston Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Burnaby & Maple Ridge BC Posts: 289	I just tried it now and it turned out to be pretty simple. I created a 1280 x 720 59.94 fps composition and loaded an ordinary DV AVI file (720 x 480 29.97 fps/60i). After Effects shows each field on each frame individually. Keep in mind it has to interpolate the missing lines, so you end up with a shimmering effect as the interpolation alternates between frames. However, that's as good as you would expect for what you are trying to do. (It would take field blending to cover this, which is what you are trying to avoid.) Interpreting 60i material as 60p is quite common in After Effects as it's the only way to manipulate the individual fields, sometimes needed for complex rotoscoping and retouching work. __________________ Earl R. Thurston, Stargate Connections Inc. Made with GY-HD100: The Container Adventures: The Rescue Last edited by Earl Thurston; September 23rd, 2006 at 11:09 PM.

September 21st, 2006, 05:47 AM	#3
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	The original footage is 60i DV. There are 60 720x240 frames there that several sports programs turn into 60p. However, it seems that PP wants to turn it into 30p duplicating frames. If you turn off deinterlacing and interpolation, you get two frames overlayed in each frame. Is there a way to get it to split the frames with odd on one and even on the other?

September 21st, 2006, 07:10 AM	#4
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	While I'm sure there is a way to do this in PPro, I use the free Virtualdub software to create 720p60 footage, and then import that into premiere for editing. I trust the quality of the Vdub resizing algorithms, there is a "Smartdeinterlace" filter available that IMHO works better than the PPro deinterlacers, and its fast. Here's the link to the filter: http://neuron2.net/smart/smart.html

September 23rd, 2006, 06:25 PM	#6
David Ziegelheim Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Warren, NJ Posts: 398	How do you do it in AE?

September 23rd, 2006, 07:48 PM	#7
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Using the 'interpret footage' option. AFX's Help explains the details.

September 23rd, 2006, 08:28 PM	#9
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	A good 'bob' filter can virtually eliminate that shimmer ... there are several for AviSynth for example.

September 24th, 2006, 04:18 AM	#10
Giroud Francois Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: switzerland Posts: 2,133	there are only 2 easy way to do this correctly. 1) you trade resolution for speed and you consider each frame as picture. you got 1080i becomes 540p. you can uprez to get get back 1080, but this would bring nothing more than what you get already (except more pixel) since doubling line is not really an improvement. 2) you keep resolution and trade for speed. deinterlacing will get you 1080i60 to 1080p30. you can interpolate to get back 60p, but the risk is getting artifact visible when looking at stills, because in this process you interpolate twice, at deinterlace and at frame picture doubling. For regular movie, i think it is the best workflow. If your final product is a DVD or is displayed on Standard Definition device, solution 1 is the best. if you need to keep it HD, the 2nd solution is better.

September 24th, 2006, 09:17 AM	#11
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	It is perfectly feasible to get good-quality 1080p60 using an appropriate 'smart" deinterlacer. Bright people have put considerable time into developing them. If you don't consider this 'correct', then by all means stick with your preferred workflow.